Good insights, and not just software developers, really. We don’t like ads, sensationalism, or anything reeking of bullshit. If we have to talk to someone to find out the price, the product may as well not exist.
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This… strikes me more as self-aggrandizing than informative.
Yes, many technical folks are put off by certain marketing tricks. Good marketers just use different techniques when targeting people in this market, when they bother to at all.
We’re not immune to manipulation; and thinking that we are makes us more susceptible to it.
Nice try. This is just trying to get us to lower our guard and become complacent!
I’ve had a theory for a while that most marketing is targeted at neurotypical people, and that it is therefore far less effective on some neurodivergent people. People love to act like neurodivergent people are immune to marketing and propaganda. Maybe the detail-oriented ness of someone with ASD does ruin a narrative, but I feel that it’s mostly just that people and companies aren’t used to targeting these demographics.
As someone who works in marketing. We are not ignorant to how people operate and how to get in front of them. Go to the sentence that “Management makes most of the decisions”. We’ll be aiming for the people who actually buy things. Unfortunately in B2B sales that is usually the CEO/CFO/VP who has very little time to read and learn and would rather someone call and explain everything to make a problem go away. Typically they are of an older generation and hate digital media and wouldn’t be caught dead on Reddit.
That said, I always say honestly sells itself. Embellishing the truth or straight up lies will only get you so far and it’s typically short term gains.
Agency’s love scummy marketing tactics. This because it’s good numbers to them and they could give a fuck what it does to the client. They just want them to see that the graph goes up sharply for the first month and than silently bleed them dry as it flattens out and they can push more tricks or services to make graph go up again.
Inhouse teams (like me) can’t shit where they eat, so have a more genuine strategy for the long term. We are vested in the well-being of our company.
Seems to me the difference between ethical and unethical marketing is the difference between trying to inform vs. influence your potential customer.
Products need a way to find customers, and customers need a way to find products - this is the problem marketing should be solving. Instead I see businesses hiring people trying everything but just informing customers.
Good marketing absolutely works on nerds. We will literally share cool ads (funny world best) with each other in the same way with memes, which is part of “viral marketing”.
At the same time though, those lame ads using low-grade, overused memes (usually the comic ones) trying to be edgy pretty much make me want to pass on a product. Crappy AI-gen ads are even worse.
But next time I go to Japan, I absolutely still want to try a Sakaeru gummy because THAT marketing campaign was just brilliant and entertaining
( https://youtu.be/LQsMp4Oo6xM )
I’ve also seen a few cool tech things in ads that I’ve looked into. Generally nothing I’ll grab right away but they often end up in a list of things that I potentially buy later when I’ve some free cash or the need. Aliexpress is pretty good with this as it tends to suggest neat tech things that are a cheap to add and fill that “free shipping” gap.
What DOESN’T work is cheap/lame broadside marketing with little to no product details. I don’t want a video as an ad - especially not one from an influencer who has no clue but looks pretty - but I’m happy to look up an actual product demo that includes key features/points.
Yeah pretty much, i mean you cant just assume because someone is a developer that they have a brain but this sums up my relationship with all the sales people ive met in my career
Me: Hey i need information about your product
Sales: Hey id love to swing by and show you our product line. How many can we put you foen for? Can we schedule a call?
Me: finds a different vendor
I was always on the front lines of dealing with software vendors and I was just fine setting up a call. Now if the website wouldn’t give me so much as basic info and pricing, denied.
Related, one night I spend an hour researching bulk sandbag prices. Found ONE site that displayed my cost, no “call for pricing”.
Yeah I think sales people are so trained into being sales people that they dont actually know how to talk like a human being anymore.
Seriously, there is something about those guys. They just cant talk normally. Not everyone. I have met some of them that just talk normally. and are aware of their products pros and cons in relation to what you need. Those are useful.
On the other hands, nerds can have their own little annoying habits too. Sometimes they have no social skills at all and act like machines.
*down
Nah. Foen is salesspeak.
Really? Then why is Apple so popular among a subset of developers?
Because Windows fucking sucks and Linux is a can of worms not everyone wants to deal with?
Apple isn’t free of sin, but it’s the simplest way to get a system that doesn’t actively work against you.
As much as I hate it, Apple has good products. And it’s enough for enough people to have active development community. By that point it’s catch 22.
Because it’s a Unix machine with support for business software.
DUH
Which is why they hate us
Has anyone been to any kind of convention for nerdy things. Nerds are so captured by the marketing and products being sold that they let it take over their personality and they can’t stop buying junk.
Posers. All of them.
Nerds enjoy a hobby, like tabletop games.
Posers buy Funkos and toys that they never open.
Nerds have fun. Posers try to look like they do.
Yeah, this is self-aggrandizement from a group of people who consistently believe they’re smarter than everybody else, when in reality they just lack self-awareness. Nerds will smugly post in this thread using their overpriced mechanical keyboard as a wall of Funko pops and Star Wars slop looms behind them. I worked in marketing for a long time and I know damn well I’m not immune to it.
I believe that thinking you’re immune to something makes you even more vulnerable, because it creates a cognitive blind spot. If you think you can’t make mistakes, you don’t stop to wonder if you are making one.
They’re not nerds. They’re posers.
I got a curved, split, tented ortholinear monstrosity with a built in trackball and I’m finally done. I get that it’s stupid and a waste of money but my hands feel so good typing all day on it
I did too. I didn’t get it to look cool, I got it because I have carpal tunnel and I don’t want to have surgery.
I like the clicky, it allows me to type longer, and I can fidgit with the firmware and do what I want with it.
If I got it because it looks techy then I’d just be a poser
Pretty much, yeah.
The article points out how a bunch of specific techniques don’t work on programmers. That’s because they’re aimed at project managers, not programmers. And yeah, they work. Hardly any programmers willingly chose Jira for their ticketing system, but project managers love that shit, and it’s everywhere.
All it really means is that it takes a different set of marketing techniques to reach programmers. They generally don’t bother, because programmers don’t typically control the budget directly.
You just described Geeks. Geek and Nerd group labels can sometimes apply to the same people, but they are not synonymous, and a person can be one without the other.
Geeks are enthusiasts who collect and engage with specific topics, often focusing on trends and memorabilia, while nerds are more academically inclined, concentrating on mastering knowledge and skills in their areas of interest. Both terms can overlap, but they emphasize different aspects of passion and expertise.
https://laist.com/shows/take-two/whats-the-difference-between-a-geek-and-a-nerd
I knew somebody would try to play that card. People who insist on that distinction are the least self-aware of all.
You’re resorting to personal attacks without knowing who I am, what I do, what I do or don’t have on the wall behind me. You apply a blanket label on all people who you class a certain way, and when I disagree with your label and its implications, and recommend nuance, you class me further.
It sounds like you think very highly of yourself, or lowly of everyone else, or both.
What makes your opinions here worthwhile?
You are not immune to marketing (or to propaganda in general). The more you become at ease with that fact, the better equipped you will be to deal with the deluge of shit that is coming for all of us.
What makes your opinions here worthwhile?
As I said in another reply, I worked in marketing for a long time, so I have first-hand experience that most others here don’t. Many have a rather narrow definition of what they’re willing to label “advertising” and don’t realize how much is actually happening all around them. I’m applying a blanket label because the blanket is covering all of us, even those who fervently deny it and insist that it’s simply warm and cozy wherever they are.
I disagree, I don’t fall into the category you stated. My walls are lined with 80s memorabilia and 3d printed things I have created. I reject anything advertised to me and will only purchase tech that I have sought out that meets my needs.
If this irony, good job because I think most people will fall for it.
I don’t think it is. I know a few people like this, and im heading in that direction myself. The only kinds of “ads” that work on me are when a number of equally nerdy people I know find a new thing, and they’ve demonstrated that it has helped them with something or they are genuinely enjoying using it. Like 3D printing. Its semi-pointless most of the time but it is a genuinely fun hobby, which when combined with 3D modeling and post-processing skills becomes an actual craft. I didn’t get into it until a good number of people around me did.
80s memorabilia and 3D printers are not exempt form marketing. They are products just like anything else.
I don’t have a single funko pop or Star Wars toy or whatever. I have a Keychron keyboard that cost me $70, while it is more costly than the average membrane I like mechanical ones. I never buy new if I can (usually this is a time constraint, I.e I broke my phone and I need to replace it quick one because my job relies it). I Adblock everywhere I possibly can to not see the ads but I genuinely believe I’m immune to advertising.
I genuinely believe I’m immune to advertising.
You are not - you just don’t see it as such. Even if you didn’t use the internet at all (which we can see is not the case) you would still fall victim to its network effects.
Then they ain’t nerds, sorry.
Yeah, I think scottsman are the ones that are actually immune to marketing.
What say you to this example of a Scotsman that is infected with marketing?
Ah damn, my arguement must have completely come apart, because that’s absolutely a scottsman, and he is falling for the marketing. I don’t think there’s any comeback for that.
Nerds in arrested development over a franchize is not the same as seeing any ad and then that makes them want to buy a product.
Right? I’ve seen the walls of Funko Pops… nerds definitely are not immune to marketing.
They aren’t fucking nerds then. Nerds don’t buy Funko Pops.
I can name 3 or 4 people who own walls of Funko pops and I can tell you they wouldn’t know an IDE from MS Word. None of them went to college either.
They’re posers.
do people actually buy those? I honestly thought they were some kind of money laundering thing. I’ve never once saw one sell.
Maybe it’s a whale thing, most people don’t give a shit but the people who do have to buy all of them to sate their neurosis
Working in tech, I’ve seen a lot of them in people’s cubicles.
Yeah but I don’t think that’s marketing, if you’re going to a con for something, you’re likely very passionate about it and passionate people love to scoop up everything they can that relates to their beloved hobby or franchise.
Also, nerds tend to have a good amount of disposable income on that stuff
Is that marketing or is it just finding stuff they want to own?
It’s marketing making them think they want to own that stuff.
How do you think you “found” it? A whole supply chain of people, from branding to packaging to advertising, made it so that you can “find” things on websites that are themselves outright advertisements or at least funded by them.
It’s a mistake to attribute purchases to marketing just because a marketer breathed the same air at some point. First-degree advertising influence and umpteenth-degree influence are very very different.
I mean, I probably wouldn’t buy a car from a company I’d never heard of, but that’s mainly because there are none. If I happened to buy a car from <insert company here> after researching what was available, I wouldn’t attribute that to <insert company here>'s marketing department. At least, not unless they bribed the independent reviewers, ratings boards, etc.
Same deal with most of my tech purchases, except that in that space there often are brands I’ve never heard of. And I’m (usually) savvy enough to tell when they’re legit and when they’re not. (I know more than I ever wanted to know about SSD controllers and I’m kind of angry about it.)
You’re right that nobody is truly “immune” to marketing, but as a matter of degrees, there’s a big difference across groups. There are people out there who look at ads and register them as useful information. There are people who intentionally click on ad banners on Instagram, rather than treating them like digital leprosy. There are people who click on the first Amazon referral listicle they find on Google and then treat it like independent journalism. There are people who use GoDaddy, when the only possible reason anyone would is because that racecar driver is hot. These are not behaviors you should expect among the kind of nerds this article is talking about.
You’re right that nobody is truly “immune” to marketing, but as a matter of degrees, there’s a big difference across groups. There are people out there who look at ads and register them as useful information. There are people who intentionally click on ad banners on Instagram, rather than treating them like digital leprosy. There are people who click on the first Amazon referral listicle they find on Google and then treat it like independent journalism.
Perhaps, but I’d argue people who click on ads knowing full well it’s an ad are more enlightened than the
nerd- sorry, “geek” - who thinks they operate on a higher plane of existence, not knowing that Youtube review was bought and paid for or that Reddit post was made by an LLM.There are people who use GoDaddy, when the only possible reason anyone would is because that racecar driver is hot. These are not behaviors you should expect among the kind of nerds this article is talking about.
You’re really dating yourself with this reference, and I am by understanding it. Incidentally, who do you think bought all that gamer girl bathwater?
Same deal with most of my tech purchases, except that in that space there often are brands I’ve never heard of. And I’m (usually) savvy enough to tell when they’re legit and when they’re not. (I know more than I ever wanted to know about SSD controllers and I’m kind of angry about it.)
This is a bit different because it isn’t really an emotional decision - they are are fungible, functionality being equal. But would you choose, say, a computer case without caring about the way it looks or makes you feel?
It’s marketing.
Marketing. It is very effective.
You are not immune to propaganda
Which is why developers don’t want to talk to a salesperson and would rather just try the tool.
Yes, that is the generalization that the article pushed. It’s not true, because developers are not homogeneous. The point of my statement is “if you are a developer, ignore this because it is not true. You don’t have some sort of power that makes you immune to marketing. You’re just as susceptible as the rest of us, just in a different way. Ya know, like everyone else is”
Which is my point. Devs know they’re susceptible and want to avoid the propaganda.
It’s the same reason most of them block ads.
Nearly everyone thinks that they are immune, but we’re not, we just recognize some that probably wasn’t targeted at us. As far as I am concerned, the only way to not be influenced by propaganda would be to completely avoid it and be some sort of hermit.
Exactly. Blocking out ads wherever possible is the only way to not be influenced by advertising. At least it helps to know that one isn’t immune to it. That helps to counteract the effects somewhat, but don’t count on it if you aren’t actively keeping your defenses up.
I bet there are hermit influencers who post videos where they hold the latest chamberpot up to the camera and extol its virtues. Then they post a shelfie that shows their latest book haul about transcendental meditation and bushcrafting.
Do they just record the video to a usb drive, seal it in a bottle, and throw it in the ocean or something? Wouldn’t posting it online revoke their hermit status?
I guess if you only posted and never read the comments/otherwise consumed you’d still be safe. Just screaming into the void
Screaming into the void is fun until the void screams back.
Yeah, the thing about propaganda is that it works, and if it doesn’t work, then the propagandists will come up with something else that does work. The thing is that they’re constantly thinking about how to exploit you, while you’re thinking about other stuff.
So for example, I hate feeling like I receive a hard sell. So, if I am at a store and somebody tries to sell me something, I will not buy it, and in fact, I’ll probably assume the product is so shoddy that it can’t be sold without pressure. Same goes for popup ads online.
But if a marketer knows this about me, then they can definitely manipulate me. They just have to do it in a way that I don’t realize is marketing. And there are all sorts of campaigns like that.
Maybe some are. You may have fallen for some propaganda here.
No, they aren’t. Any one who thinks they are is more susceptible.
Humans are social creatures, propaganda is a social contagion.
The only people who could be would be those with no ties to anyone. Kind of a nonstarter for the whole “cooperative survival strategy” that humans got going on.
But the article’s not talking about social humans. It’s talking about developers, probably the most antisocial humans to exist.
That’s propaganda.
I see what you’re saying, but I’m done talking about this. Your logic is circular at its base, so there’s nothing to talk about.
Yeah, I was just trying to prove a point that anything that’s a blanket statement saying everyone or no-one does something is invalid, unless it’s a physical constraint. (Even those break inside Neutron stars and black holes.)
I agree with you that almost everyone is susceptible to propaganda, but to say that no one is immune is simply wrong. Anyway, sorry for being annoying and pedantic, but it was kind of on purpose.
Yeah, but maybe we don’t make that point on the statement that reminds people to be mindful of their beliefs and where they picked them up from. Feels like a thing that we should maybe encourage in people more, if anything.
True, and having the hubris to think otherwise makes you even less immune.
Good insights, and not just software developers, really. We don’t like ads, sensationalism, or anything reeking of bullshit
Its a big list of major assumptions by someone who never bothered to verify if they’re even true. He’s mad he had to work with a heavily marketed product that his boss liked, and wrote this about it. Check out this quote from the article;
And the really fun part is that “astroturfing” a thread about your product on Hacker News or Reddit is just about impossible. If you go to the places where developers hang out and try to promote your product, you will be shot down faster than Mark Zuckerberg at a privacy conference.
Dude. Reddit is practically more bot than person at this point, and its impossible to know by how much, because of how good they are at fooling everyone. https://www.clrn.org/how-much-of-reddit-is-bots/
Yeah, there was a time when that was true, but Reddit’s been heavily compromised for…I dunno, at least a decade now. Pretty much every public forum becomes compromised after it reaches a certain size, and now with The Power of AI, it’s economical to compromise smaller and smaller forums, too, and it’s harder and harder to properly calibrate your bullshit detector. yayy…
There are still some great specialized nerd forums out there though. Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1603/
Yeah, no prices. I move on. Same with job ads, no salary no application. If I get an intrusive ad, I’m not buying that product, I’ll deliberately seek out another brand in fact.
Is that a weird attitude to have? I thought it just made sense. We shouldn’t be rewarding this BS.
As a System Admin, I totally feel this. I fucking hate vendors and their bullshit marketing. In generally during the times that I have to deal, I will usually hear them out. But if the rep is annoying I will start the Q&A with questions that are designed to destroy their presentations or expose how little they know about their products. Good sales reps know how to react but bad ones just dig it in deeper and it becomes a show.
I’d love some example questions for this.
it’s situation dependent for sure but I listen for junk jargon most of the time and then do root cause analysis like questions on it. like trying to find the answers to asking why to everything they say. why does it work like that? Does it support xyz? why? why… . Gotta do it right so your coworkers are in on it. there’s a uncomfortable laugh when you know you hit the mark.
Marketing absolutely works on Nerds, what a ridiculous statement. Just because certain types marketing will push us away doesn’t mean all marketing is pointless. Be honest, let me know what your product does, give me a proper datasheet and a price, and I’ll explore it. Try to shove some hyperbolic BS down by throat while hiding the things I actually care about and I’ll never buy from your company.
I think there’s a substantial difference between “supplying information about a product without shoving it in people’s face”, and what most people associate with “marketing”.
If a company putting up neutral, verifiable information about their product on their own webpage where I can find it by searching for something I’m looking for after reflexively scrolling past the ads counts as marketing, then yes, I “fall for marketing” all the time. However, what I typically associate with “marketing” involves me somehow being fed information about a product without seeking it out. Usually when that happens, I’ll actively look somewhere else.
This headline could be amended to be more accurate as “experts in a given field not swayed by marketing that does not respect their expertise”. I’m sure there are bullshit claims on fertilizers that landscapers laugh at. I’m sure automotive engineers aren’t impressed by most features in a new car brochure. Trying to market a software solution to software engineers with bullshit claims it’s just a bad marketing strategy.
If you want to sell software with bullshit claims, market it to the executives!
