Finally, another web engine is being developed to compete with Chromium and Firefox (Gecko), and they’re also working on a browser that will use it.
Hot take: Since it’s a BSD licensed browser at some point in the future, there’s going to be a company that funds it brings it to mainstream with their flavor, and then will over throw chromium in time. Replace an ‘evil’ with another ‘evil’.
All hail the cuck license, ensuring we end up back at the same place every single time.
Good intentions and all that
Isn’t that the road to hell? Paved with good intentions
Luckily Gecko still exists. And who knows, maybe Servo will make it one day (but the odds are stacked against both them and Ladybird anyway).
I like this project and just hope it was gplv3 or some similar copyleft license
Ladybird is licences under BSD-clause 2. Which allows privatization of the code.
IMO a web browser should be GPLv3, specially to not allow DRM bullshit in the browser.
AGPL, to prevent streaming (while not sharing the code).
Yeah AGPLv3 is the best if it’s going to be hosted as a service. Which a lot of web services do. Good point.
yeah agree
Yeah not a good licence at all for an independent browser. Idk if Servo MPL is a good license either. Do you know of any web browser that is GPL?
Definitely not what you want, but Gnome web (Epiphany) is GPLv3 according to flathub.
Its better than a BSD style license which is what I was mainly critiquing
WebKit/Blink are mostly LGPL.
We don’t have anyone actively working on Windows support, and there are considerable changes required to make it work well outside a Unix-like environment.
We would like to do Windows eventually, but it’s not a priority at the moment.
This is how you make “critical mass” adoption that much more difficult.
As much as I love Linux, if you are creating a program to be used by everyone and anyone, you achieve adoption inertia and public consciousness penetration by focusing on the largest platform first. And at 72% market share, that would be Windows.
I hope this initiative works. I really do. But intentionally ignoring three-quarters of the market is tantamount to breaking at least one leg before the starting gate even opens. This browser is likely to be relegated to being a highly niche and special-interest-only browser with minuscule adoption numbers, which means it will be virtually ignored by web developers and web policy makers.
Ladybird was originally started as a browser for SerenityOS, a POSIX operating system. Well into the project, they decided to make it cross-platform but that still meant POSIX ( Linux and macOS ). As interest ( and sponsorships ) came in from outside SerenityOS, focus moved more and more to the browser and away from SerenityOS.
Just recently, Ladybird decided to split from SerenityOS, allow more outside code, and in fact has dropped SerenityOS as a supported OS.
The project is fairly pragmatic. I am sure they will add Windows support as the core browser engine matures.
LadyBird is an unusable pre-alpha-quality web browser. The fact that they haven’t bothered porting to Windows yet is both thoroughly unsurprising and entirely meaningless. In its current state, it wouldn’t become popular either way. But I guess Linux users have this weird inferiority complex where everything must instantly be dropped to port to Windows even when it makes little sense to do so.
Linux users tend to give much better bug reports than Windows users (if they do at all). That alone is probably a good enough reason to do Linux first. There are many more good reasons when the first goal is getting it functional and not getting as many users as possible (who will probably hate it if they’re not a technically skilled user because there will be bugs).
You’re making an assumption their first priority is the number of users. I would suspect that isn’t true, and they’re aware Windows has more users.
We would like to do Windows eventually, but it’s not a priority at the moment.
intentionally ignoring
I think you just read what you wanted to read don’t you think?
One salty downvote from @rekabis@lemmy.ca :P
Can’t win 'em all.
i’d like to see a revival of webkit and an open source browser that uses it
Doesn’t Safari still use WebKit?
it’s the only one i knew about before the other comment. with more browsers using it, we may not need to build another engine from scratch to broaden competition
I think this is the argument that the Ladybird people have made:
- Chrome is dependent on Google ( obviously )
- Edge is dependent on Google ( based on Chromium )
- Firefox is dependent on Google ( 80% of revenue )
- Safari is dependent on Google ( $4 billion from Google )
- most other browsers are dependent on Google ( use Chromium ) - Brave, Vivaldi, Opera, etc
Ladybird is intended to be a truly independent browser and especially independent of Google.
Safari isn’t dependent on Google. It was just a no-brainer for Apple to take a free 20 billion dollars from Google for setting the default search engine to something most users would want anyway.
It’s nice and all but usage of Swift is kind of not great.
Why is Swift bad?
Also, I noticed the project has taken donations from mostly non-foss companies. Let’s hope they stand by their principles
Shopify (i.e. Shittify) being their top donor already has me looking sideways at this project. They’ll invest in anything they think they can get an edge with and if something starts to happen they’ll fuck it up and wallstreet-ify it as fast as possible if they can.
Their (Shopify’s) guru founder Tobi made a huge NFT play that went absolutely nowhere while I still worked there. They spent a lot of time and money on it, right before they laid several thousand people off.
Welp, I haven’t seen anyone learn Swift other than for Apple stuff these days. So I wonder how many can actually contribute to the code. It’s also made by Apple, so yeah. It would have been more performant and secure (both of which are pretty important in a browser) if it was written in a more low level language. For example Rust.
It’s also made by Apple, so yeah.
It’s also open-source? Like, Microsoft created C# and Typescript. Google created Go. Those get used without people bringing up their origins. Hell,
RustJavascript* was created by a homophobe. What, do you think the license lets Apple close-source everyone’s code if they choose or something?Sorry, I’m just really tired of these low-effort comments. The only thing that should matter is the language and if it hits the goals the project needs.
Rust was created by a homophobe
javascript, too
Sorry, I was thinking of Javascript. Rust was a different Mozilla employee.
May I recommend editing your comment?
Honestly, I really should have already, but spaced on it. Thank you for reminding me.
makes sense, though. javascript is a very bad language :shrug:
Sure. It is open source, but the development is done by Apple engineers. I also would like to state that Go has trackers in it. I also don’t really care what the creator of a language is. Homophobe, sexist, racist or other similar stuff, I couldn’t care less as long as the language is good.
You couldn’t care, as long as the language is good, but you care when it’s Apple?
You’re wrong btw. Sure, Apple engineers developed it originally. But it is now in the hands of the open source community, with over 1,000 contributors on github: https://github.com/swiftlang/swift
Edit: To be clear, unlike something like Chromium, Apple doesn’t even own the repositories anymore. It’s fully independent.
I said:
I couldn’t care less as long as the language is good.
Why wouldn’t I care if the language is bad in my opinion?
Okay, so what’s bad about Swift?
“More performant” citation needed. Very well written Rust might be extremely fast, yes, but Rust is also a hard language to get right. Swift is far from a slow language and I would not be surprised if the average rust programmer barely if at all manages to beat out the average swift programmer in terms of speed. As for the amount of programmers interested, hard to tell, but given the sheer amount of Swift devs I’d not be surprised if there were quite a few interested ones and I am unconvinced Rust programmers are statistically more likely to be interested in Browser development.
lol
What’s the problem with the gecko engine?
What’s the problem with the blink engine?
Multiple implementations is good for everyone.
I feel like like inventing the wheel every five years is not the best use of talented people’s time.
Tell that to Microsoft. Lol.
How is it progressing so fast compared to Servo? Isn’t Servo being developed for a longer time?
Servo was partially integrated into Firefox and discontinued
Servo is now an active project managed by the Linux Foundation.
Which means nothing honestly
I think Ladybird has way more promise
Basically everywhere I go on Lemmy you’re there spouting ignorant bullshit, garbage takes, rage-bait and misinformation. You’re inescapable. This is the perfect example. You know what you’re saying is wrong. You know you’re being dishonest. Do you wanna know how I know? Because I literally told you as much less than two weeks ago when you tried spreading the same lies. But you didn’t care back then and you still don’t care now. The only thing you seem to care about going by the other things I’ve seen you post is pushing your favorite projects, and you will use all of the arguments available to do so, including the ones that you just entirely made up. You think LadyBird is the better project and are trying to spread the belief that Servo is dead to make others buy into the LadyBird hype further. But, of course, Servo verifiably isn’t dead and in fact the Servo team writes up monthly blog posts detailing their progress, which show the project developing at a healthy pace. And to top it all off, when these facts are pointed out to you, your only comeback is “means nothing”. Clearly you’re not the kind of person to let facts tie you down.
Servo hype
verso is the web browser, servo is the web engine
As someone insecure in their masculinity I don’t know if u would use ladybird. Now if it was MANbird I would.
They should have called it ManDrill. Nothing more masculine than drilling a man.
Sure, nothing is more masculine than having a preference for men.
Was this sarcasm? /genq
Yes it was
No /hj
The devs have some problematic views, mainly transphobic and misogynistic.
Is this because they used “he” instead of “they” in the build instructions? … They changed that and acknowledged the mistake. Surely that’s enough. It’s the fucking build instructions. I think we can probably find it in our hearts to forgive them.
[edit] Just in case people think I’m joking. I’m not. As far as I’m aware, the critical incident that that has resulted in people calling Ladybird devs anti-trans is that they wrote ‘he’ instead of ‘they’ in the build instructions. That’s what caused the original outrage. And as far as I’m aware, there have been no other incidents. But please, if there is something of substance that I’m not aware of, post about it here.
The problem was more the fact that the devs viewed using anything other than ‘he’ as political, not the presence of gendered language itself. The devs themselves made a big deal about changing it. The way I see it, it’s not even about trans people. How about just women? Is including women in software developent considered political? One would hope not, but here we are…
I wouldn’t read too much into it. Using “he” instead of “it” is a mistake that a person might make if English is not their first language. It’s pretty easy to imagine that someone working on a browser would not be interesting in messing around with the pronouns in their build instructions. They made an error, and they didn’t think the error was important (which in itself was another error). But it is fixed now. Surely no harm done. They were not actively trying to impede anyone’s progress or deny anyone’s rights, or even say anything negative about anyone at all. They simply made a mistake in their use of pronouns in their build instructions. The mistake is now fixed. And although its fair to take it as a ‘warning’ that maybe there are objectionable views lurking in there, it certainly is not evidence of such views. I really don’t think it’s fair to hang this mistake over them. I’m sure that pretty much everyone in this thread has made worse mistakes throughout their lives. I know I certainly have.
I get the mistake. Wouldn’t even call it one tbh, just an oversight. But when someone points it out normally one doesn’t reply with “don’t force your political views onto me” as if non male devs was some weird “woke” concept. A simple “whoops, missed that” would have been perfectly fine and everyone would’ve moved on. With that said, having followed the whole debacle I can say it could have been handled better by both sides.
To be clear, nobody was outraged by the devs using gendered language. The outrage was because they rejected multiple PRs to correct it under the guise of it being “political”.
That’s literally it. People are getting angry over unsubstantiated information for 0 reason
It almost like a bot is posting this sentence every time SerenityOS is mentioned.
Using “he” insted of “they” is not enough to call someone transphobic or misogynistic. It’s like you become fascist and are targeting people for one different opinion. Which is not even true.
There are real problems transgender people are having, ladybird browser must be low on that priority.
Such accusations should really be followed by a source.
Jumping to transphobic and misogynistic for not wanting to use inclusive language in some repo documentation is a big jump. He didn’t ever dead named anyone or refuse to use some person preferred pronoums. Its just not wanting to use inclusive language on documentation. Most, if not all, documentation I have ever read in my life don’t use the newest trend of inclusive language.
By they way accusations were written it seemed like devs were actually exposing hate speech or something like that.
Let’s not be like that, ok? At least I choose not be like that. You can destroy people lives with such accusations over basically nothing, be better.
I know that we are near Americans elections as it always makes the whole internet jumping, and throwing knives to find “the enemy”. But it could be as simple as inclusive language might be confusing for non english speakers, or might the trend change over time and it’s just a bother to keep updating with the lastest trend. Do you know how many versions of inclusive language did we have in my language? We started using ell@s, then ellxs, then ellos y ellas, then elles, then ellos, ellas y elles. It’s too volatile and little to be that mad over it. Specially when there’s people out there who truly hate anyone who is not a cis str male and is doing true hate speech over that.
If there’s more evidence of devs being evil, I will aknowledge it. But for such a little inconsequential thing (again it’s not even being against someone chosen pronoums, it’s just general documentation) I refuse to spread hate towards other human being.
I’ve seen some inclusive tech docs in which they (ha!) use “she” instead of “he” or “they.” I thought that was cool.
Are people writing “she” instead of “they” misogynistic and transphobic too?
Are people writing “she” instead of “they” misogynistic and transphobic too?
There’s no such thing as “reverse racism”, “misandry”, etc. That’s not how systemic oppression works.
This was resolved and the PR was merged
No, it wasn’t. You might say that the issue was sidestepped, because it says “it”, rather than “they”, now.
I guess it was an overreaction by mastodon, though. Even if I understand the initial criticism.
‘It’ is gender neutral so it was resolved
You claimed the PR was merged.
A PR fixing all those issues was merged.
They used “they” when referring to a person, and “it” when referring to a process (the author used “he” when referring to a process calling another process, when he should have used “it.”)
Where do you guys get the energy to keep up these smear campaigns?
techbros are gonna have to start providing receipts on why they arent shit
Also, the use of AI-generated images on their website.
So?
For many small project is AI/copied images or no images at all.
When you do not have money you are not hiring a 2000€/month artist to do imagery for your website. You go online to copy something or nowadays you can use AI to wrap it up. It’s a tool at people’s disposition like any other.
And before anyone comes talking about copyright laws… shall I present them my 10 TB hard drive of pirated media? Human culture is to be shared, not gatekeeped.
you do not have money you are not hiring a 2000€/month artist
On the site I see like, one stock footage of a plant, one of a ladybird and some rando abstract graphics. What are you guys talking about here? Am I out of date? Should I ask for raise? (I’m not an artist but SW engineer, so probably not.)
What’s wrong with that?
For one, AI datasets often break copyright law, frequently appropriating from artists. Executives are also trying to use it to eliminate the jobs of artists, and I feel it’s wrong to try and obsolete something people love doing.
In addition, they take a lot of power, not helping in the way of the needed changes to follow climate goals.
Clarification: Copyright laws can be annoying, and I don’t always agree with them. However, it also protects smaller artists. I think there are many cases where piracy is totally fine, though, like if a company vaults an animated streaming show and gets rid of all other ways to watch it.
Interesting. I am an artist, but I find it helps me make better art. Faster too.
But all my work is copyleft and I give zero shits about so-called “copyright infringement”
Executives are also trying to use it to eliminate the jobs of artists, and I feel it’s wrong to try and obsolete something people love doing.
Luddism, much?
The lesson of the Luddites is to fight the industrialist who wants to take away the pleasures of being human in the name of enriching said industrialist. Time and effort saving mechanisms should benefit the laborer, and no one else. That their movement has been labeled as being resistant to human progress or uninformed of the benefits of industrialization tells on our society’s propaganda mechanisms and our failure to teach our own history
I couldnt really care less about my chefs personal view as long as the meal is ok.
Cool. But some other people have morals, and wouldn’t wish to give a chef some money if he, for example, wanted to exterminate minority groups.
Maybe you’d turn a blind eye and say “well, I’m not in danger from him, so why should I care? I just want food.” but don’t be surprised when people think you’re a cunt because of it.
Cool. But some other people have morals
Come on, that’s a far stretch. What the person said does not imply that they don’t have morals.
don’t be surprised when people think you’re a cunt because of it.
Maybe no one should be, especially on the internet ;-)
It definitely implies that. If you’d give literal Nazis your patronage, you probably lack morals.
Honestly, it surprises me that you’d be fine giving money to Nazis. Kinda weird.
Don’t put all all Ladybird devs in the same basket, there’s currently more than 1000 contributors.
Ok, Andreas Kling said some untasteful things a few years ago when it was mostly his project, but I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the whole project for this reason now.
Like what?
Genuinely interested in knowing what he’s said.
Oh gosh here we go again, as in Braves case.
Maybe you’re unaffected so you don’t give a shit. Or maybe you view gay people as scum undeserving of equal rights.
But donating money to try to reverse gay marriage is disgusting. As is donating money to a politician who said AIDS was a good thing and gay people should be cleansed of the earth by it. That’s tantamount to wishing for genocide.
It’s honestly tiring how many people in the tech/FOSS community just straight up don’t give a shit about certain demographics, or even hate them outright, and see any inclusion of them at all as “politics”.
I’m so very sorry that my view that gay people are human beings deserving of equal rights, and that we shouldn’t celebrate the idea of them all dying in agony, is so unpalatable to you 🙄
Sauce?
From last time. TL;DR real weird vibes. This is a PR where you say “oops, that makes sense”, click merge, and go on living your life. Not whatever this ended up being.
Like i said earlier, it was changed to they later, to the lead dev, in german they/them is a neopronoun, and “he” is gender neutral is those situations, i assume he thought it was the same in english
I don’t understand how a German grammar situation would elicit the response from the PR. Are gender neutral pronouns “political” in Germany? Why did the dev say “personal politics” specifically?
Are gender neutral pronouns “political” in Germany?
Yeah, (like in french) male pronouns ARE the gender neutral option, and using they/them would be like using xim/xer in english
Upgrading to gender neutral language is important.
Having a reflex to avoid politics, especially when you live in an environment where concepts like gender aren’t discussed, is understandable. It’s an attempt to do no harm that doesn’t have the expected impact. It still causes harm because simple problems like gendered language are treated with an allergic response. This is what happens when conservatives hyper-sensitize well-meaning people on social topics. Considering the world we live in, you can’t expect everyone to know how to flawlessly navigate these issues on the first try.
Their policy of “no politics” was misguided, but understandable. Everything is political. It was fashionable for decades to pretend otherwise. Many people grow up in an environment that ignores social topics. They need to be accepted into spaces where social topics are discussed, not immediately ostracized for not knowing the rules to a game they are new to.
I would like them to neutralize gendered assumptions in their documentation and learn from the experience, but that can only happen if they aren’t ostracized from the community. I want to give them a chance to learn and improve to disrupt Google’s unhealthy monopoly in the browser space.
The PR in question is also in error. It claims that the documentation assumed the gender of the user or the developer. A close reading of the requested commit reveals that the documentation instead assumes the gender of an example user named “anon” whose permissions are being altered. The documentation’s use of gender is in using a male as an example user needing their privileges deescalated. Still problematic, of course: not only men need their privilege checked from time to time.
Having a reflex to avoid politics, especially when you live in an environment where concepts like gender aren’t discussed, is understandable
Being female is not “political”.
Their policy of “no politics” was misguided, but understandable.
Being female is not “political”.
Everything is political.
Being female is not “political”.
Being female requires a society that preserves the freedom to be female and for each generation to define what that means for themselves.
The rights of all are political and need to be at the forefront of politics. The rights of women being threatened politicizes them. The political constitution of the united states chose to clearly define rights that ought to be upheld. We seem to be losing them, as they fall through judicial cracks. They were only ever built by jurisprudence updating interpretations of old text to modern values (e.g. the weakly inferred right to privacy that needs to be more explicit, upon which Roe was founded). Now connotations are being stripped, and it will take political action to restore our rights. The US Constitution is almost 250 years old, and still says enslaved people get 3/5 votes. The 13th amendment says only criminals can be slaves. That means felons should have 3/5 of a vote, not no vote, right? Broken document in vital need of a reassessment of values. It’s fallen apart and America needs a new one. It’s time for a constitutional convention and for the country to vote on some amendments, or even a new document. A document that ensures free and fair elections, with independent primaries and ranked choice voting. A document that guarantees more explicitly our rights to privacy and to seek medical care. A document that upholds labor rights and reins in greed before it can choke the country with monopolies like Google has with Chromium + solely funding Mozilla. It’s time for a new deal with the American people that can survive the courts for more than 80 years because anything we put in the new constitution will be constitutional by definition.
This is a political time. We are all political actors. We define how politics proceeds and decide whose rights are considered.
