The Russian Presidential Aide and head of the Russian negotiating group with Ukraine also said that recently the Russian Military Historical Society handed over several thousand books to the institutions where Ukrainian prisoners of war are being held, including textbooks on the history of Russia in the 20th century and pamphlets about Bandera
Russian state media. Not a credible source for anything (see also the other articles for some glaring examples of misinformation).
Although if Ukraine has less PoWs to exchange, part of the reason might be that Russia would rather see their soldiers die than surrender. They actively shoot their own soldiers.
Source: watched Enemy at the Gates one time
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Not believing every single piece of anti Russian propaganda, no matter how silly it is, is not the same as being pro-Russian
No, but claiming Russian state media is more independent and reliable than the diversity of western media, is.
Owned by a handful of billionaires and beholden to their interests. It’s like thinking that the different brands of bottled water are “diverse” because they have different packaging.
The person you’re replying to claimed Russian state media is more reliable than the fiction film Enemy at the Gates. If you’ve seen a diverse set of Western outlets claiming Russian military strategy is shooting their own soldiers, then I’m afraid the outlets you trust are less reliable than Russian state media.
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I mean it wasn’t me, but that’s because that’s a scene in the film. You or your source were confusing the plot of the film for reality.
Russia are not cartoon villains. They are rational villains. No large organisation acts like cartoon villains. When they do evil things, it’s for the sake of a goal that makes sense. If someone has told you about atrocities committed by Russia which don’t further Russia’s goals, then they have lied to you. Those atrocities either never happened or were not committed by Russia.
I’m not. BrainInABox is the one talking about a movie. I’m not.
Russia is not a single rational entity. No organization is. It’s made up of people who all have their own goals, which can often be shortsighted and even irrational.
Putin wants to control Ukraine. At any cost. He wants Stalin’s empire back. He’s waging his war because he lost his puppet, and he wants to prevent Ukraine from making its own independent decisions. And ye doesn’t want to hear that that’s impossible. His generals and other servants mostly want to please him, and fear bringing him bad news. They throw ridiculous numbers of soldiers at pointless human wave assaults just to gain a couple of meters ground. They can show Putin progress, but the cost is enormous. Because of these deadly assaults, morale is obviously low. Many soldiers don’t want to fight, but even if they do, sometimes the tactical situation demands a withdrawal. Generals don’t want to lose ground, so they use barrier troops to shoot Russian soldiers if they withdraw or surrender, forcing them to fight. And it’s working to some extent; Russian troops are very reluctant to withdraw or surrender, but that also means casualties are sky high. But that also means that soldiers get intentionally wounded in order to get out of fighting, or even frag their officer to get out of a suicide mission.
It’s a dysfunctional mess, but every part of it makes sense for the people involved.
And if you pay attention, you can see similar perverse incentives at work in western countries too. People as rational actors is a lazy lie used to justify dysfunctional systems.
Also consider IDF soldiers committing cartoonishly evil atrocities against Palestinian kids because it makes sense in their heads. That doesn’t make it any less evil.
And I never claimed that, yet you called me pro Russian anyway
There are people here doing exactly that, and just a few comments up, you’re trying to defend Russian state media by comparing criticism of Russian state media with a movie.
Which is not a comparison that makes any sense at all. You start out grasping at straws and are trying ti recover from that.
Why are you replying to yourself?
I posted that as a reply to https://lemmy.zip/comment/21065746. Not sure how that went wrong.
haha yea, the western media says it’s un-credible so it must be true! Not lik they have any incentive to slander a news outlet that bucks approved western narratives or anythin. Nope. No reason at all! 😂
Unlike Russian state media, western media is independent and not beholden to their government, but nice try.
You cannot be serious. You know Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, right? What do you think is happening here?
The only difference between Russian State media and our media, is that the western ruling class is savvy enough to launder their propaganda through privately owned media.
It’s absolutely terrible that so many American media is owned by billionaires, but that’s not all of western media, and it’s still not the same as Russian state media.
I still don’t get why so many people here are so desperate to defend the state-controlled media of a brutal dictatorship.
Russia is no more a “brutal dictatorship” than the US is, or the UK, or any number of other capitalist shithole countries that call themselves “democracies.” Russian state media is no worse than, for example, the BBC or CNN. But more importantly, it does not have the global reach that the BBC and CNN have. The key thing that you’re utterly failing to understand here is that Russia does not have the global hegemony that the US has (and NATO in general, though NATO is just a collection of vassal states subservient to US capital). Russian state media cannot begin to compete on the global stage with the overwhelming stranglehold that western media has over not only their own domestic populations but the rest of the world. We here in the west are not saturated day in and day out by Russian propaganda, but we absolutely are by western capital (which is synonymous with US state) propaganda. Pretending like this is an even playing field is absurd and it’s why no one here is taking your whining about eBiL RuZzIaN media seriously. It’s not about “defending” Russian media, it’s about recognizing geopolitical reality.
Surely you must recognise how ridiculous that claim is.
Sure, Trump would love for it to be true, and he’s certainly trying to, but even in the US, you can still publicly say this, while in Russia, you’d be headed for prison. Putin’s political opponents frequently fall out of windows or catch some polonium poisoning.
These things are not the same, and pretending they are, makes you blind to how much worse they can still get. Russia is absolutely more of a brutal dictatorship than even the US, but especially than most European countries.
I’m not denying the toxic influence of money either, but that’s still not comparable to the hold Putin has over his country and his media.
Hmm… I wonder what happened to the original leadership of BLM? And hey, what are Fred Hampton and Mark Clark up to these days? Has Gary Webb published any articles recently?
Oh believe me, I am well aware how bad they can get, you’re just completely unaware of how bad they’ve already been. You believe all these lies about how terrible Russia is, looking at it only through the lens that western propagandists have carefully cultivated for you without realizing that every accusation they’ve levied on their enemies is a confession about what they themselves have been doing all along. You’re as intellectually domesticated by US imperialist interests as any diehard Kremlin-supporting Russian citizen, only you have the benefit of being on the side that enjoys global hegemony without even understanding what that word means. You’re all up in arms about the lies of the media of an enemy state without having even an ounce of self awareness about the lies of the media you’re consuming, the very same media from which you think you’ve learned how uniquely bad the enemy’s media is.
I don’t even live in the US. I live in Europe, and I’m concerned about the freedom and safety of my fellow human beings, and I’m disgusted by how US imperial interests have suddenly decided to embrace Putin and is turning against Europe.
My side is not enjoying global hegemony. I only wish Europe asserted itself against wannabe hegemons like the US and Russia, but political leaders here are too cowardly for that.
I see American media increasingly parroting Putin’s viewpoints, because of this American realignment, and that’s what you’re asking me to blindly accept? No, fuck that. You talk a lot about others being controlled by propaganda, but I don’t see an ounce of self awareness in you.
You seem to endlessly fall back on this, have you noticed? Just raw Appeals to Personal Incredulity.
I always start out believing people are capable of critical thought and self awareness, until they prove otherwise. Plenty of that in this discussion, unfortunately.
Should I just accept that you’re incapable of critical thought or grasping meaningful nuance?
Please, go on. I’d love to hear more.
…or just accuse me of something I wasn’t doing. You’re definitely someone who approaches things in good faith, unlike the Russians.
Read the rest of the discussion. To me, you come across as part of a mob trying to defend Russian state media. And yes, arguing that all of western media, despite its freedom of the press, diversity of ownership and various degrees of editorial independence, is just as bad as Russian state media, is defending it.
I’m not arguing that all of western media is perfect; much of it is corrupt (especially in the US, but that is not all of the west). But not all of it is that bad. And even the corrupt ones frequently disagree with each other. That gives us access to much more diverse reporting than Russian state media provides.
I am aware that making sense of that diversity requires critical thought, which is in increasingly short supply in recent years.
Also note that the link you shared, of Trump flanked by billionaires, comes from western media.
And I’m saying that’s a problem with your reading comprehension; not the content of my argument. Especially because I never defended Russian state media. I too think state media is bad. The difference between you and I is that I’m not fooled by the corporate proxy that is western media.
Again, go on…
And yet you seem to struggle to explain how it’s so “diverse.” What’s diverse about it? Who are the non-corrupt Western sources? Please tell me, since I’m so stupid 😕
And that’s only something you’re reading into this. I’m well aware of the problems with western media. Some of them are notorious for their lies, many are corporate controlled, and especially in the US, refuse to even acknowledge anti corporate sentiment (see how US media struggled to make sense of Luigi Mangione, for example), but they’re fairly transparent about it, and and sometimes they really are telling the truth.
With some critical thinking, you can actually discern the truth out of that, without having to resort to Russian state media’s reports on the disastrous war Russia is waging.
“Independent” western media? I’d sooner find a unicorn
Tell me who NRC is beholden to, then.
NRC is beholden to the massive corporate conglomerate Mediahaus, which is, in turn, beholden to the Belgian oligarch Thomas Leysen.
They’ve got a strict separation between ownership and editors, though. They regularly go against the grain and report deeper than merely repeating the convenient narrative.
Sure, capitalism and independent media don’t go together well, but state control and i dependent media are an even worse combination, and on the scale of what’s possible, NRC is doing quite well. Certainly much better than Tass.
No they don’t. Ultimately ownership chooses who works there.
How did you determine this?
Pure vibes based statement.
How did you determine the this? Because it tells you narratives that agree with your world view?
I read and compare. When Maccabi supporters were picking fights with Arab taxi drivers in Amsterdam, they didn’t blindly repeat the government story about pogroms but told what really happened, a story that eventually won out. They’ve never shied away from stories inconvenient to any government or corporate interest, as long as it’s based in facts.
They’re highly regarded for their objectivity.
If you want to attack them, you’ve got to come up with more than vibes.
And the fact that you’re baselessly attacking them while defending Tass, is outright ridiculous.
Western media is usually beholden to state department lines, and recieves partial funding. Moreover, western media is thoroughly under the control of wealthy capitalists laser-focusing on their own interests. There’s no such thing as “free” mass media.
Which state department do you mean? Are you aware that “western media” is spread over 2 dozen different countries? Sure, US corporate media is highly partisan and corrupt, but even the US has independent media, and many other countries have much more independent media. They’re certainly not as dominated by the state, let alone a single state, as they are in Russia. Not even in the US (although that’s certainly moving in that direction). And in every western country, even the US, the media will often disagree with or debunk the government’s narrative.
Private media is beholden to the wealthiest in society, and often recieves state funding as well. This is true across all western nations, including European nations. The few, minor independent news organizations that go against the grain are overwhelmed by the standard mass media.
Bullshit. Sure, in the US everything is corporate owned and controlled. But in Europe, there are media reporting every side of every story. My primary newspaper (NRC, a major Dutch newspaper) has no problem going against the grain when the situation calls for it. But even in the US with its highly partisan media, there are news outlets for every political leaning, and many do not blindly parrot the government narrative like Russian media does.
Whatever misgivings you have about western media (and some are definitely justified), it’s really no comparison to Russia, where a wrong word can have you falling out of a window. Putin brutally silences dissent in a way even Trump can only dream of.
Dutch media isn’t particularly different from US media. Further, the “every political leaning” really just translates to various flavors of right-wing, from SocDem to fascist. What gets boosted by private investors is what permeates discourse. Private media is no less biased than state media.
Dutch media is far less partisan than US media, which in turn is still far less state-controlled than Russian media. You’re fooling yourself if you want to pretend these are all the same.
Furthermore, SocDem is not right-wing by even the farthest stretch of the imagination. It’s moderate left. If you want further left than that, there’s still small indie media for you. If you consider every voice out there to be compromised and right-wing, maybe the problem is you.
The netherlands are absolutely not exempt from this phenomenon. It affects every country where capital stands above political power and the media, including yours.
https://swprs.org/the-propaganda-multiplier/
None of that confirms the claim that western media is as unfree as Russian media. Sure there are concerns, but even then, none of the quoted percentages are 100%; the other voices do exist. And regardless of the power of money, there are many journalists out there risking their lives to report the truth. Look at Gaza, for example. Many western governments wanted to ignore it but now can’t because media keep reporting about the atrocities.
Israel has murdered more journalists than Putin could dream of, with full support of Europe.
And the media report it. That is my point.
Western governments are (too) slowly changing their stance on Israel and Gaza because western media keep reporting about it.
This coming from someone who was perfectly happy using the Ukrainian military as a source. Are you going to also try to argue that they are independent from the state?
I don’t know what you’re talking about, and I doubt you do. You’re here defending Tass as a source.
I’m talking about here https://lemmy.ml/post/35157502/20675876.
So yes, I do know what I’m talking about, and I suspect you know to, and are just pretending not to because you can’t actually defend yourself on this.
Against what? Against vibes? Against Russians trying to defend their state media? Do you have even the slightest awareness of context here?
Good one! 😂😂
Definitely better than Russian media.
Source on them shooting their own soldiers???
There’s tons:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67234144
https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-russian-military-shooting-own-retreating-troops-ukraine-media-1806118
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13891677/Deserting-Russians-killed-snipers-wounded-troops-no-longer-evacuated-injuring-avoid-fighting-intercepted-messages-reveal.html
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/18201
https://united24media.com/latest-news/drone-footage-exposes-russian-soldiers-killing-their-own-wounded-on-the-battlefield-10164
https://kyivindependent.com/intercepted-calls-suggest-a-russian-commander-ordering-to-shoot-ones-own/
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-opened-fire-on-own-surrendering-soldiers-with-artillery-ukraine-2023-9
Well, the thing is Ukraine has been known to use barrier troops. And not only is there actual video footage https://sputnikglobe.com/20231231/watch-group-of-retreating-ukrainian-soldiers-shot-by-barrier-troops-1115907212.html but there is an azov commander openly talking about “motivational troops” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QQO1KrjN6o&t=3228s
Lol, those are literally using the Ukrainian military as their source. Not even state media, literally just the state military itself. You absolute hypocrite.
Are you arguing that all video from a warzone is inherently fake?
While it’s true that truth is the first casualty in war, and you’ve got to apply that filter to all news coming from any warzone (also the Russian side; again, see what you’re defending), the reports on Russian atrocities, even against their own soldiers, are overwhelming. They’re also coming from Russian sources.
But sure, keep your head in the sand. You probably also don’t believe reports about IDF atrocities in Gaza, do you?
You know someone has nothing when they’re resorting to “are you saying that [obviously false statement that doesn’t actually resemble what they said]?”
You say, having only been able to provide sources from the Ukrainian government.
U see you defend imperialists and deny reports of their atrocities. You may call that “nothing”, but I don’t.
But sure, let’s get some nore sources:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/russian-war-hero-the-executioner-allegedly-ordered-troops-shoot-him-massive-payout-scheme-report (note: originally reported by a Russian source)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russian-troops-raped-tortured-children-ukraine-un-panel-says-rcna49168 (UN reporting on Russian atrocities)
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4297872-shooting-their-own-soldiers-one-more-russian-act-of-barbarity-in-ukraine/ (US and many other sources)
https://metro.co.uk/2023/06/13/russian-troops-filmed-executing-comrades-trying-to-flee-frontline-18943873/ (Ukrainian drone, but it’s caught on video. Want to argue that didn’t happen?)
https://guardian.pressreader.com/article/281908777399398
Here’s Wikipedia on barrier troops: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops
Obviously you’re unlikely to see Russian media reporting on how they shoot their own soldiers as a matter of policy, and obviously the only parties close to the front lines as Russian and Ukrainian, but there is a variety of sources reporting on this, and Russia has a known history of using barrier troops.
But if you believe only Russian state media is telling the truth, then no amount of facts will convince you.
Once again: Not believing every single piece of anti Russian propaganda, no matter how silly it is, is not the same as being pro-Russian.
This article literally does not contain your claim! You are just LYING THROUGH YOUR TEETH now.
I’m not going to address the rest of them if you’re just deliberately posting unrelated articles and lying about their contents, because at that point it’s clear you’re just being dishonest and trying to waste time!
Lying? Because a Russian source talks about Russian soldiers shooting Russian soldiers in a different context than barrier troops? You’re just cherry picking so you don’t have to address the facts.
Do you seriously want to argue that atrocities don’t exist unless the party committing them admits they exist? You live in a very pleasant world.
I wonder if this community has moderation. I take all this propaganda shit personally because I live in Russia and fighting Russian propaganda seems futile to me but I at least Lemmy feels so cozy and friendly to me but then I face this shit again and it brakes my heart.
I’m also Russian but living in US. ‘fighting Russian propaganda’ isn’t really a priority for me tbh. It’s just another side of the story to be evaluated with the rest of the propaganda coming from state and corporate media sources.
I prefer to evaluate sources where I know their biases ahead of time. Sources that pretend to be impartial and unbiased are perfectly capable of spreading propaganda too.
“Unbiased” just means establishment liberal at this point.
I’m sorry, man. Usually it’s better here. This is a weird day.