Reported experiences vary between the hundreds of hostages, but in general, public statements have been inspecific declarations that they went through hell. A smaller number have spoken more publicly and described specific horrible abuses. Prisoners released by Israel largely mirror this, which is consistent with an abundance of public evidence that Israel operates extremely brutal extrajudicial torture camps.

But honestly, I’m not sure why we’re still talking about this. This started because you said that you believe it’s important to exercise skepticism towards sensationalist claims, and I pointed out that it’s equally dangerous to ignore credible atrocities because they are too shocking.

The situation in Israel/Palestine is really not that complicated. If you’re unaware because you’re not following it, that’s fine, but then I think it’s ignorant to demand extreme forms of evidence for things which are already well documented that you can’t be bothered to review.

The US is materially supporting a state sponsor of terrorism in broad daylight. This is publicly acknowledged by experts and major figures within Israel. Do with that information what you will.

You know, that’s kind of a weird response. Because what I asked was whether or not my interpretation of a set of events fulfilled your criteria for credibility. And instead of answering a pretty simple yes-no question you asked whether Greta Thunberg has published photos of her unclothed body.

I feel like you responded in your head, and then imagined my response, and then wrote a response to that.

But I think I can infer that you’re unconvinced.

Now I gotta ask: if that’s your standard of evidence, do you also doubt the veracity of the Israeli hostages returned from Gaza who attested to being tortured and abused?

If not, I think you’re exercising some pretty “selective” skepticism. And if so, congrats on your neutrality but Jesus Christ, that’s fucked up. When anyone gets back from captivity and alleges that they were abused or raped or violated, requiring them to expose themselves to you as the price to have their claims considered is quite gross. It’s not even an effective form of proof. Most torture is markless, and bruises are easily faked.

I’m not asking you to “believe women” or accept any victim narrative unexamined. I’m just pointing out that you can judge victims credibility without demanding that they submit to your leering gaze. Don’t believe Greta? Fine. I think that just as the hostages are far more credible witnesses to their own treatment than Hamas, the hundreds of flotilla activists testimony is far, far more credible than IDF. But you do you.

Uh… @DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works ?

I think it sounds like you might be a danger to yourself.

I don’t know your situation, but I just want to point out two things:

1. The belief that those around a depressed person secretly don’t want them around or would appreciate them more when they’re gone is wildly untrue. It kind of sounds like your brain is trying to convince you of this, and you should know that your brain is almost certainly lying. Lots of people know folks who are depressed that we love very much and are grateful to have in our lives.

2. People who survive suicide attempts consistently experience enormous regret and relief that they survived. They typically describe the experience as terrifying, and report that it felt like someone else was trying to kill them.

I know that during depression, negative thoughts can make a convincing case that you cannot expect anything to get better, but there are A LOT of people alive today who enjoy their lives who felt the same way at some time in the past. I hope that with support you can perhaps be one of these people.

So where does this fall for you?

Two weeks after the alleged incidents, we have further reported details. Greta Thunburg has given a lengthily interview to Aftonbladet. In it she alleges that she was tortured in captivity. She also shows off her suitcase, which bears Israeli vandalism. Her story is corroborated by interviews with numerous witnesses, including journalists such as Saverio Tommasi.

Thunburg describes a visit by the Israeli Minister of National Security, Itmar Ben G’vir. Ben G’vir has confirmed this, and released footage of the event. Though the foreign minister has denied the claims that she and the other activists were tortured, Ben G’vir has expressed pride that they were made to suffer. He described them as terrorists. This was reported by The Times of Israel. This should be understood in the context that he is responsible for overseeing their treatment, and he has repeatedly expressed that he believes that terrorists in captivity should be tortured.

So my question, again, is whether you’d say that Greta Thunberg’s claims to have endured torture in Israeli captivity, during which time she was beaten, starved, and subjected to solitary confinement can be considered objectively verified.

I think so. I think the original report was fairly credible, and I think subsequent reporting thoroughly substantiates it by rigorous journalistic standards. Would you agree with this?

That’s pathetic. You’re either an artist or a philosopher. No engineer would be able to write such nonsense

(What no art education does to a mfer)

I’m actually an automation engineer!

Look: it’s fine to be unfamiliar with ideas, but please don’t be rude and stubborn about not knowing something.

You should read Einstein’s writing. Sagan too. If you place technical knowledge as the highest (or only) form of intelligence then maybe they’ll break through for you.

Can I ask how old you are, and what your parents do/did growing up?

I don’t want to come off as mocking, but it sounds like you don’t understand the role art plays in a functioning society.

Artists explore ideas at the lowest level of a chain of creativity that extends up to scientists and decision makers. In the same way that rocket engineers rely on physicists and chemists to uncover the science that underlies engineering, and physicists and chemists require mathematicians the uncover the math that underlies physics and chemistry, artists essentially research the human condition to allow their society to weigh whether building a rocket is worth doing; where it should go; what it should do; who should be on it; etc.

Our collapsing society could in some part be blamed on the fact that our economic system has failed to fund research into the ideas and social technologies that we need to transition away from obsolete social systems.

It’s so bizarre… surreal… darkly comic – I don’t know the right phrasing for this – that Ben G’vir so embodies this Israeli form of double-speak. He will deny and confess in the same sentence.

He is the kind of guy who will say ‘Any accusation that I am a torturer is a lie! Also, though, I do believe that torture is appropriate and I’m very committed to acting on that belief.’

So much has happened, many people don’t know or remember. But I feel like the Sde Tilman riots were a turning point. Soldiers caught on camera raping a man in detention. And the public outcry including from members of the government was ‘They’re innocent! And also completely justified in raping that man! We’re not criminals! And also we will bring furious violence against anyone who tries to hold us accountable under the law!’

Trump does this too, though even he isn’t as skilled at it. ‘To call me a fascist is slander! How dare you! But also I don’t consider that a bad thing.’

It’s very dark.

OAN: "I was saying Boo-urns."

I think it’s remarkable that you and several other folks actually give notice. Now-a-days, I think that’s somewhat unusual.

A lot of people just bounce. Sometimes they don’t even bother telling anyone, they just don’t show up and stop picking up the phone. I hear about this happening regularly at my husband’s workplace (which to be fair is retail).

I told my last boss when I began reaching final round interviews so that he could plan accordingly. A lot of people thought that was risky and that I should’ve just quietly lined up my next job and told him I was leaving once I’d accepted, but I liked him and liked the work (it was lab research. I wasn’t a big-time scientist, but I’d been managing the lab for a while and actually gave a shit about what we did).

Regarding your situation, I think you did what you could and showed a lot more integrity than is common. Could you have stayed until your boss was back from vacation and then given a proper notice? If so, well… then maybe you should’ve. If not… then it’s unfortunate, but there wasn’t much I think you could’ve done.

I appreciate this answer, because it at least tries to reason from first principles. You can’t, imo, have this conversation without actually defining what we consider to be the problem.

I think the key concern is that age – particularly during teenage years – typically correlates with a power imbalance. And the concern is that the younger person could be exploited and/or suffer harm. However we need to remember:

1. It’s possible for relationships to have a power imbalance and no one is harmed or looks back with regret.
2. It’s possible for relationships between people of the same age to be very harmful/regretable.

So the questions I have are: how correlated is a specific age gap with severe harm? And what would we advise in this situation?

I think that a 16 year-old probably has around a 50% of getting badly hurt in a relationship with another 16 year-old, and probably a ~65% chance with a 19 year-old. Because a 19 year-old can probably manipulate a 16 year-old better than their peer, but they’re also presumably a bit more experienced and mature, which can be a good thing.

I’m making these predictions presuming that they’re sexually active, btw. Which I think is probable. But if they’re not, I think that the risks go down to around 10% chance in both cases. This is just my gut impression. So I’d just advise any 16 year-old in a relationship with a 19 year-old to move VERY slowly physically, and talk frequently to an older friend or sibling. And if your partner wants to do anything you’re uncomfortable talking about with your older friend or sibling, that’s a sign you shouldn’t do it.

If you follow that rule, I think 16 and 19 is no big deal. Because I really want to emphasize: a lot of the risk already exists when a 16 year-old dates someone their own age.

Does this cut both ways? Because I agree with what you: we should not reflexively believe sensationalist claims because they reinforce our preferred view of the world.

But under the exact same logic, we also should avoid dismissing sensationalist claims because they contradict our preferred view of the world.

Being aware of the manipulation you mentioned, and the fact that forces are trying to manipulate you in both directions on this issue… do you have any credible reason to dismiss testimony by Greta Thunberg to a Swedish diplomat regarding the treatment she experienced?

For a second I misread and was like, wait, what? Then I clicked and was like, ok, wow. That’s a take…

Respectfully:

Are you genuinely interested in exercising neutral skepticism? Or are you just arguing on the Internet against claims that run counter to your preferences for what you’d like to be true?

(Be honest.)

The article attributes it’s claims to credible sources. Do you have evidence to the contrary, or just believe what suits you?

The beating and flag kissing is sourced to another captive, and might be exaggerated, but her general mistreatment was reported by Swedish diplomats after speaking to her. It’s pretty credible, imo.

I answered this in reply to another comment at greater length, but I’m describing this as a pattern of behavior that I think has already set Israel on a course for collapse in several years.

I should clarify what I mean a bit.

I’m not saying that brutalizing Greta Thunberg is the straw that is going to break the camel’s back. I’m saying that it’s an escalation of a pattern of behavior that I think is very likely leading toward a collapse of the zionist project at some point in the next decade.

The testimony of those doctors is absolutely part of the same pattern of behavior. And while a lot of folks have looked at the continuing genocide and concluded that clearly, nothing has mattered and nothing will, I believe it has, and it will.

It’s hard to describe succinctly, but Israel today is far, far, FAR weaker than Israel 5 years ago. There is an inertia that lets them feign invincibility, but the country is truly in times without precedent. The longest war since its establishment was 118 days in '82. So much of the assumptions on which Israel relies – constant readiness, bipartisan US support, the total support of Europe, constant Jewish immigration, a strong labor force, a booming tourism industry – is in shambles. Internal divisions are rending their society apart. Their economy, international influence, and social institutions are in crisis.

In this context, this continued loss of an ability or willingness to be discrete in their atrocities really does bolster my conviction that in the next five years the country is going to collapse.

Unlike many, I don’t say this lightly or with glee. I just say it because it’s what I foresee.

While I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, it’s amazing how self-destructive this is. Greta is an internationally famous activist. Flagrantly violating and abusing a person with world renown - along with dozens of other activists - is a radically stupid way to hasten international isolation.

It is well known by most in Israel that the country simply cannot function in isolation. It will lead to collapse. In this, they are giving the flotilla far more power to eventually overthrow the ruling regime.

I love buses too, but a van pool is materially different. Buses travel fixed routes. A van pool can act as a shared taxi that shuttles people directly between points of immediate departure, transit stations, and final destinations.

This article is a little light on thesis, but legit.

Personally, I’d like to tie a vision of autonomous vehicles to a broad rethinking of transit and public ownership. What if training data was shared, so instead of allowing Google to create another monopoly we deliberately cultivated a diverse market? What if we designed roads to accommodate autonomous van pools and also bikes and more light vehicles?

We can dream better than this.