But if you agree that Hamas is despicable, why not call for it to surrender?

Hamas should turn themselves over the ICJ, they won’t, but this would not stop Israel.

Why can’t you say war criminals should turn themselves over to the ICJ?

You don’t think it would stop Israel, but it could

The actions of one group of people have no bearing over the actions of another group of people. Hamas does not control Israel. Hamas is not making Israel kill civilians. Israel can stop killing civilians whenever they want.

Because you don’t want Israel to ‘win’?

What is Israel winning here? Global isolation? Crimes against humanity? Increasing antisemitism?

The chance of saving children isn’t worth that much to you?

No, killing children isn’t worth making the world a worse place for all of us.

They would have to, and they would.

This is an appeal to common decency fallacy. No one is forced to do something because it is decent. Israel is proof of that with it’s indecent attacks on civilians. The evidence we have indicates Israel’s governments wants to be at war to maintain its grip on power. They are actively ignoring a proposal that is effectively equivalent to one they already agreed to previously.

My suspicion is that Israel only agreed thinking Hamas would not. Now that Hamas has agreed to it Israel is in an awkward spot. And no doubt Israel would be even more mask off if Hamas blatantly surrendered.

so angry and attacking of Israel.

Because your argument is a collection of fallacies and genocide apologia. And it’s not the first time it’s been trotted out. Hamas isn’t the organization bombing Gaza right now. And sure Hamas definitely wanted this to happen, but that doesn’t excuse Israel’s disregard of international law and human decency.

You react vehemently against the notion that Hamas should surrender

The idea that Israel would cease attacking civilians if Hamas surrendered is false based on the evidence of a genocide being live streamed to our phones. For Israel, the genocide is the goal. Netanyahu wants to form a greater Israel and deny Palestinian statehood.

There is no justification for attacking civilians. Calling Palestinians human shields is not a valid legal or moral argument, it is a dehumanization tactic. The fact that Israel is at war with Hamas doesn’t matter. If Israel would follow international law this would end today. If Israel would acknowledge their shared humanity with the Palestinians this would end today.

Israel is the one bombing civilians. If Israel would stop bombing civilians this would end today. edit: typos

If the Israelis who fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War were 18 in 1948 that would make them 77 years older or 95 years old. This is like Israel hunting down the Nazis on their death bed. At some point most of these people died of old age. It’s going to be the odd centenarian who faces justice in 2030.

I am not a Nazi or a Zionist. I do not seek the total extermination of groups of people. This has no appeal to me. Put whoever in jail or prison that deserves it but you will likely be transferring them to a hospital and then a morgue shortly after.

Here is the current list of centenarians now as an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_living_centenarians

Searching by Israeli I get seven matches:

• Dutch-Israeli | Holocaust survivor[11]
• Israeli | Air Force major general[68]
• German-born British-Israeli | Journalist, actor, businessman and Holocaust survivor[180]
• Israeli | Military official and expert[222]
• Ukrainian-Israeli | Olympic fencer[262]
• Israeli | Nuclear physicist[277]
• Polish-born Israeli | War veteran[306]

Unless you speak some of these languages I recommend the language translator option that should appear in the top right of your browser’s search bar.

Are we arresting the Polish guy who fought in the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 against the Nazis? He also fought in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War against Arabs.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-853294

Looks like the Major General and the Air Force Commander would fit squarely into the kind of people you would want in the Hauge.

There’s also the Dutch-Israeli woman who is a holocaust survivor to consider.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2538252-107-jarige-holocaustoverlevende-krijgt-amsterdamse-andreaspenning

And the British-Israeli holocaust survivor who rescued soldiers from the Battle of Normandy and is the oldest active journalist. But his quote about October 7th, published on January 7th, 2024 hasn’t aged well.

“I’ve always felt a deep connection to the Jewish people and our homeland. I value the moments I’ve spent fighting against tyranny and promoting the truth through journalism. I could never have imagined that at the age of 100 I would be a witness to the horrific pogrom against Jews that took place on October 7 and the terrifying resurgence of antisemitism since. As I celebrate today, I also pray for the future of the State of Israel and the Jewish people.”

Probably seemed like a reasonable statement a few months after October 7th.

https://www.jwire.com.au/walter-bingham-kindertransport-survivor-celebrates-100th-birthday/

There is the Ukrainian Israeli Olympic fencer

A man who survived the Battle of Stalingrad and the Chernobyl disaster.

Источник: https://www.sovsport.ru/chronicles/articles/segodnya-istoricheskij-den-starejshemu-otechestvennomu-olimpijczu-100-let

(The site can copy the link when you paste a quote. Cool.)

And here’s a softball, the Israeli nuclear physicist was in the Palmach. Easy Hague material.

Those are the seven who are 100 or older now. Is this something people are seriously interested engaging in for people younger than that who would now be in their nineties? Or does this context not even matter and people want these people in prison regardless? And is prison good enough or do people want blood? Punishing these people in any capacity won’t undermine Zionism. There is no utility in such an endeavor if the goal is defeating Zionism, an ideology.

Also, since I identified seven Jewish centenarians which comes off as a sus thing to do and some people like saying things that start off with ‘If you were a Jew’, I’m a Russian-Jewish American and undoubtedly a mix of European ethnic groups as I am pasty white, but not an Israeli. edit: typo

Israel as a zionist Jewish ethno-state must be replaced with a multi-ethnic pluralistic state. Part of accomplishing that requires Netanyahu’s governing coalition collapse. A great way to accomplish that would be to send Israel’s government to the Hague.

‘Do you condemn Hamas?’ is a meme at this point. No one is taking that far-right talking point seriously.

Your argument is using a motte-and-bailey fallacy. It begins by solely blaming Hamas for the continuation of the war for not surrendering when it is quite clear that Israel has no intention of accepting such a surrender. Israel is actively ignoring a ceasefire proposal they previously agreed to right now.

Then when pressed your argument retreats to asserting most people refuse to put partial blame on Hamas. I condemn Hamas. A majority of people on here do. No one is interested in wasting their time saying that. ‘Do you condemn Hamas’ has been done quite a bit at this point. There’s nothing weird about not taking your genocide apologia seriously.

Yes, because Israel is explicitly a settler colonial project. They could keep attacking Gaza like they keep attacking Syria despite Syria not doing anything hostile to them. Israel is there to take land while killing and displacing the current inhabitants.

US support for Israel is not derived from popular support, but by the profits of the military industrial complex. As long the conflict is profitable it will continue.

Netanyahu’s has explicitly stated it is the goal of his generation to deny Palestinian statehood.

Hamas should turn themselves over the ICJ, they won’t, but this would not stop Israel. Right-wing groups want their opposing counterparts to exist so they have an excuse to commit more atrocities later. Hamas wants nothing more for everyone in Gaza to die so they can have two million martyrs. Israel’s far right government wanted a pretext to carry out this genocide. It’s undoubtedly part of why Netanyahu help found Hamas. Which has been known publicly since 2019. edit: typo

https://newrepublic.com/article/176962/hamas-finances-funding-sources-palestinian-authority

For fascists, the constant state of conflict is the goal. In Netanyahu’s case this is doubly true, because he could end up in prison if his government collapses.

The first country to adopt LLMs for everything is the one that will collapse first. This is a race where the winners never start and at best stop before they reach the end.

It turns out that there is a lot of profit in making the world a worse place.

Americans who read the constitution.

That was done in the 50’s by Republicans. Democrats lack the guts to fight back against it.

That’s why I said highly improbable. But if they became states it would be the end of Canadian politics. It would be all American politics at that point. edit: typo

Currently it seems like there is a highly improbable but mathematically possible outcome where the Conservatives and Bloc Québécois form a government. Canada gets to be the 51st state and Quebec gets to be the 52nd state. 💀

Let’s get that last seat! edit: typos

How long ago was that? If you did that to someone younger now, who hasn’t heard of it, they would probably believe you without asking if it was real. The fact Iran-Contra is real is neither here nor there. What’s changed is how people engage with conspiracy theories. We should want people to think critically and ask for evidence.

People already dismissed conspiracy theories in general. I’m old enough to remember a time when conspiracism was a fringe belief system back in the 90’s and 2000’s when I was a kid.

The right-wing infosphere has normalized conspiracism. Fox News got people to believe there was a conspiracy where there was none so the Republicans could enact the equivalent of a conspiracy in broad daylight. TDS, Trump derangement syndrome, is the go to accusation for the MAGA movement against their opposition. Calling people conspiracy theorists would probably cause a bit of cognitive dissonance for Republican voters.

Some conspiracies do exist, and those who are part of them ALWAYS deny them.

All kinds of people deny conspiracy theories usually because of the lack of evidence and attempts at grifting. Trump never denies involvement in Jan 6th, he mostly lies about the nature of the attack on the capital. He intentionally mischaracterizes the attack as peaceful despite the deaths.

Has Putin lost any support for all the defenestration and underwear poisoning? People used to think dictators would lose support if dictators killed people in the street. The truth is if you control the narrative you can get away with killing people and if you don’t you can’t get away with doing nothing wrong.

I’m going to fast forward through the fact that the entirety of the above comment was full of nothing but baseless conspiracy theories pretending that they aren’t conspiracy theories and that some other conspiracy theories are the actual conspiracy theories. Own it.

I’m fast forwarding because the comment has completely missed my argument’s actual point.

So I live in a world where the rich and the powerful can commit whatever crimes they want and be elected world leaders.

My argument’s position is not that governments couldn’t do this in theory. My argument’s position is that they have no reason to do this in practice. They don’t need to make our deaths look like suicides to kill us. They can kill us.

They can kill us and lose no support whatsoever in a fair and free election. And it’s way easier than covering it up, because they can use the investigations as a talking point in their rallies without the downside of consequences because there are no consequences. The people still think it’s true because they are trapped in information silos. And they all accuse everyone else of having TDS, Trump derangement syndrome. edit: typos

this is the language of the powerful this is how they communicate to us not to resist and blow the whistle.

So I live in a world where the rich and the powerful can commit whatever crimes they want and be elected world leaders.

They could have this person killed and claim credit for it and still get elected. Trump publicly ordered a mob to descend on the capital and they killed cops. Now he’s president again.

Critical thinking is a skill. Anyone can learn it. We can measure a person’s ability by giving them tests and throwing a wide array of problems at them.

Trump isn’t just being facetious when he says could get away with shooting someone in public and not lose a single supporter. He is largely correct. The bulk of his supporters are people in the MAGA cult who blindly believe in any conspiracy theory they see on facebook. They would either not believe he did it or if he did that it was justified.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-fifth-avenue-comment/

So let’s continue to engage in some critical thinking.

What are the rich and powerful communicating by jumping through these extra hoops? That they can have us killed but only if they make it look like a suicide?

how many more of them are you going to watch die before you rise from your chair?

If it turns out that this person or a revelation that all the people who conspiracy theorists assert were murdered were to come to light tomorrow do you think anything would change? We know who Trump is. We know who many of these powerful people are. We keep electing them. There has been no up rising despite knowing about their connection to Epstein and other criminal activities.

You are serving their agenda by sowing doubt.

I’m arguing in favor of the current official narrative so if anything I’m sowing trust, but I digress. What are they gaining they don’t already have by me arguing this? If a government did this they won’t be able to keep it a secret for long, see the recent Signal chats, and they won’t face the blow back they deserve, see the last decade of history.

What’s happened here is that reality is outpacing the conspiracy’s capacity to be disconcerting and distressing. Conspiracy takes after narrative. This idea that powerful elites need to hide their crimes to maintain power is almost comforting. There’s a way for good to defeat evil that elites have to respect or face consequences. Unlike in narrative where the revealing of a truth is met by public outcry and backlash, in reality the truth is met with a doubling down on candidates and deeply held beliefs no matter how awful they are.

So I live in a world where the rich and the powerful can commit whatever crimes they want and be elected world leaders.

Conspiracy theorists live in a world where the rich and powerful can commit whatever crimes they want and be elected world leaders and then vengefully kill their accusers, but make it look like a suicide for some reason.

Seems like the same thing with extra steps. Why do people think they would want or need to do the extra steps?

Netanyahu’s goals are to deny Palestinian statehood and form a greater Israel. He does not care about the hostages.