- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ml
As evidence, the lawsuit cites unnamed “courageous whistleblowers” who allege that WhatsApp and Meta employees can request to view a user’s messages through a simple process, thus bypassing the app’s end-to-end encryption. “A worker need only send a ‘task’ (i.e., request via Meta’s internal system) to a Meta engineer with an explanation that they need access to WhatsApp messages for their job,” the lawsuit claims. “The Meta engineering team will then grant access – often without any scrutiny at all – and the worker’s workstation will then have a new window or widget available that can pull up any WhatsApp user’s messages based on the user’s User ID number, which is unique to a user but identical across all Meta products.”
“Once the Meta worker has this access, they can read users’ messages by opening the widget; no separate decryption step is required,” the 51-page complaint adds. “The WhatsApp messages appear in widgets commingled with widgets containing messages from unencrypted sources. Messages appear almost as soon as they are communicated – essentially, in real-time. Moreover, access is unlimited in temporal scope, with Meta workers able to access messages from the time users first activated their accounts, including those messages users believe they have deleted.” The lawsuit does not provide any technical details to back up the rather sensational claims.
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WhatsApp client is closed source. Any claims around E2EE is pointless, since it’s impossible to verify.
It’s E2EE alright. Just, don’t ask what “ends” we’re talking about.
Their mouth and Zuckerberg’s ass
For Facebook it doesn’t matter if its e2e. They control the client on both sides. They can just let the client sent the clear text data to them.
TMBE
Trust me bro encryption
Any claims around E2EE is pointless, since it’s impossible to verify.
This is objectively false. Reverse engineering is a thing, as is packet inspection.
Reverse engineering is theoretically possible, but often very difficult in practice.
I’m not enough of an expert in cryptography to know for sure if packet inspection would allow you to tell if a ciphertext could be decrypted by a second “back door” key. My gut says it’s not possible, but I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
Hell, as far as I know, E2EE would be indistinguishable from client to server encryption, where the server can read everything without the need for a secret “backdoor key”. You can see that the channel is encrypted, but you can’t know who has the other key.
The easiest way to break E2EE is to copy your private key to Meta’s servers. It’s very easy to implement, and close to impossible to detect.
Now you just need Meta to allow you on their networks to inspect packets and reverse engineer their servers because as far as I know, WhatsApp messages are not P2P.
/edit I betcha $5 that the connection from client to server is TLS(https), good luck decrypting that to see what its payload is.
No it is not. Whatsapp gets several updates a month. How do you keep up with that rate?
Outside of open-source. That shit is usually illegal
It isn’t. Otherwise security research would never happen for proprietary software and services.
SureSure no white hat never been sued before
In the US, CFAA is so draconian that in certain aspects it can be very illegal to reverse engineer code behind explicit ToS which whatsapp make you agree through click-wrap agreement (meaning explicit I agree button press) upon installing the app. So Meta could easily sue you with very good chance of winning. I work in security and reverse engineer a lot of stuff but just because my company has lawyers that will protect me (also I’m not an american) but generally americans are super fucked here and there are many stories of people being sued and even imprisoned for breaking ToS.
Call me old fashioned but I really think that for real E2EE the vendor of the encryption and the vendor of the infrastructure should be two different entities.
For example PGP/GPG on <any mail provider>… great! Proton? Not great
Jabber/XMMP with e2ee encryption great! WhatsApp/Telegram/signal… less so (sure I take signal over the other two every day… but it’s enough to compromise a single entity for accessing the data)
Okay Old Fashioned, but doesn’t open source encryption audited by a third party solve this problem? Signal protocol for example? Also proton, I’m guessing, but I’m too lazy to check
Cynical me would say they don’t have to use the code they put up on GitHub in production.
By this logic, can we trust any open source software, even if they claim to use some third party encryption? They could say they’re using a super secure encryption, even show it implemented in their open source code base, then just put the other, secret evil backdoor code base in production? Is there a way for any open source project to prove that the code in their open source repo is the code in production?
This is called reproducible builds. With this all builds of a version will be binary-identical. So you can build from the repo and the compare it with the appstore binary and see if the owner was honest.
I found this:
https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop/blob/main/reproducible-builds/README.md
Looks like they’re working on reproducibility, at least in the desktop app. That’s a little disappointing but i guess I’m happy they’re working on it.
Neat! And can this been done with signal or proton?
Signal: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/blob/main/reproducible-builds/README.md
Proton: didn’t find anything (but I just did a quick lookup)
If you can self host it, yes. Like matrix
But only if you self-host right? Otherwise who ever hosts the matrix instance can tinker with it.
Correct.
In the end i have to choose between some shady company or some guy with a homelab. I guess I’ll choose the one who isn’t financially incentivized to screw me over.
Yep
Unfortunately even the best intentioned and best audited project can be compromised. So that is not a guarantee (sure, much better than closed source but that is a given)
You may be forced by a rubber hose attack (or legal one) to insert vulnerabilities in your code… and you have the traffic… a single point to attack… signal/proton/etc
Is it possible with two different vendors? Sure it is but it is way more complicated
That’s a really good point. All we’d need is for signal devs to be compromised in some way and the next update ends security for signal.
why
Not much people use clients anymore.
Yeah and I think it’s a pity. It’s the byproduct of “app culture” everything has to be easy. One button, plug and play…
Unfortunately like many things in life “saving” (time and effort n this case) has a cost
Well if I can’t trust Meta with my information, who CAN I trust
Me
Oh okay. My location is 55.752121, 37.617664, my full name is Jeremy, and my password is hunter9. I trust you not to tell this to anybody
Your full name is “Jeremy”?
Oh god damnit chemicalprofet why did you tell this guy i thougjt i could trust you :((
All I see is ‘••••••’
I see ‘******’ though.
Maybe it’s just a different interface.
Jeremy “Iks” Hunter IX
Edit: IX. Iks. I think we got it right now.
The Ninth
Pronounced “iks”
Just like Cher (which is short for Cheremy).
Your secret is safe with us and our 36,893 affiliates.
Legitimate interest, though 🤞
Nice to see the ancient lore alive.
Hi Vova
Can confirm, chemicalprophet is the best password manager I’ve ever used.
Ah! You did your own research!
ta
The drunk dude that’s always sitting on the ground near the park entrance and sell weird tissue dolls with curly hairs is more trustworthy, I’d say.
Wait, you are telling me that the company whos entire business is collecting personal information, including people who don’t sign up for their services, to leverage for advertising, is keeping their platforms unsecured they can continually grab more information rather than secure it?
I for one am shocked, absolutely shocked.
Yes, except they’re not leveraging your data for advertising, they’re leveraging it so they can manipulate your political views and keep you from finding solidarity with other working people.
@FlyingCircus @technology These two things are the same thing
15 years ago I’d have called this a conspiracy theory given how the evidence seems to be anecdotal, but given literally every single other thing we’ve learned in recent times about how cartoonishly evil and lying the tech bros truly are, it seems entirely likely.
s/the tech bros/humans/
Despite “the tech bros” really being that, I’m learning over time about some people surprisingly cowardly and evil, while looking like better versions of me, and some other people looking pretty normal and usual, while being epic and tragic heroes, and some other people looking like a typical Nazi 80 years late to the party, yet more honorable than many, and some other people looking like weak and nice versions of me, while having real warrior spirit.
You have no idea how big the world is in all dimensions. We are all looking at it via our daily interactions, via news and internet discussions, via games and via books, and we don’t see what’s deep inside. Well, I suppose, people who read classics can see something.
And they, these people on top of big tech, being just human, have such powers. What can they do with them? Perhaps we should forgive them for not being wise in deciding to have those powers, and praise them for doing less evil with them than they could.
So. Perhaps in 15 years you’ve just grown.
A lot of victim blaming in this thread. Why can’t you just be mad for someone who was deceived?
Because it’s the gazillionth time the exactly totally absolutely same kind of shit happens with the very exactly same company that didn’t even try to hide who they were.
And next week the very very same deceived people will be of Facebook, Instagram, etc. And maybe, just MAYBE they’ll migrate away from Whatsapp… to join another proprietary network of another billonaire’s controlled megacorp.Because I’m tired of being “that pain in the ass” when barely suggesting to use something else all to see at the end people crying over things they’ve be warned about.
If a kid burns themself once on a kitchen’s hotplate, you assume they learnt their lesson in an unfortunate way despite all the warnings.
If adults keep burning themselves over and over… and over and over and over, at which point are you entitled to say they’re part of the f*cking problem??I’m sick of Mark fucking zuckerberg.
If i was the mad king of the usa all of those tech bros would be in a jail in el salvador.
OH JUST USE SOMETHING ELSE!
I do but that doesn’t stop that ugly weak fuck from stealing from my business every chance he fucking gets.
It’s like buying a hot dog from a gas station and not feeling awesome tomorrow.
If you keep buying the hot dog every week, you see other people buying it and are fine, but you’re the only one getting sick week after week, at some point maybe you should just stop buying the hot dog.
No one else is getting sick. They know what they’re getting. But you keep buying it expecting this time it’ll be different. And when it isn’t it’s the gas stations fault.
at what point is it someone’s responsibility to simply know better?
this isn’t some complicated deceit it’s literally one of the most untrustworthy companies in the world lying to your face. A company we’ve known for now like two decades is untrustworthy and overtly harms people to make money
do people have responsibility at all?
People can’t take increase responsibility for every single aspect of life. It seems straightforward to you because you’re likely tech literate. Do you know every process around how the mechanic services your vehicle, how medicines are made that you consume, how food is curated that you consume, how energy is generated that you consume? People can’t have intimate knowledge of every aspect of life, therefore if a company says “this is E2EE” you should be able to believe that at face value and rely on consumer protection agencies to follow up if it’s inaccurate.
You don’t need to be tech literate to follow the news. Meta has been caught in lie after lie for YEARS and it has all been widely reported on. Meta needs to face actual repercussions for their crimes against humanity, but anybody still buying into their bullshit is being willfully ignorant.
You are correct and incorrect at the same time. Yes, nobody should trust Meta. But Meta should also be dragged into every court available for their lies.
You just agreed with my points while telling me I’m incorrect. How am I incorrect?
No that’s not correct at all. If a company says something you do not in fact just get to believe it at face value and do 0 research, this applies in every field you mentioned. What planet are you from where you are supposed to just believe what companies say at face value???
People often get second options from different mechanics, doctors, contractors, and all sorts of specialists when told something because you need to do your own research to know about stuff.
You literally do in fact need to try and learn and make informed decisions about everything in life.
Chief, if you needed to make an informed decision about every decision in life, there’d be no time for life. That’s why other people specialize in jobs so that within reason, confidence can be placed to their decision. I’m not saying you blindly agree and follow everything, but people can’t be responsible for every decision. For example, who made the seatbelt in your car? What research did you personally do to verify the safety of your seatbelt. What maintenance have you done to it to ensure that it works as intended? Pretty important life saving bit of equipment.
Edit: my presumption is that you(or the vast majority of the population) haven’t done any research into your seatbelt because you trust in the car company and the safety rating requirements of your nation to ensure adequate protection.
You don’t need to worry about who made your seatbelt the same way you don’t need to worry about which specific programmers work for meta
You do need to worry about the repairability and safety rating of your car the same way you need to worry about the core descriptions of Meta’s products
Do you see?
Repairability in what way? Outside of changing the tires, a modern car is so complex with all the electronic systems in it that you can’t really repair it yourself and you can’t even reset the error codes because you don’t have that special tablet to even hook into it.
For safety ratings, do you even know what they test and how without looking it up? I’d venture a guess that no, but I’ve been surprised before.
People maybe buy a Toyota because they once read that they just work or people may buy a Mercedes one day because their Dad used to always drive one, but they probably didn’t sift through the damn safety and repairability ratings for it, they probably just bought it after a test drive. Its the same thing with anything really, how many times have you ever seen anyone question an app or a device that they are using when it just works and they don’t even have to think about it? Its either 0 or close to it.
You can simply go look up how repairable various makes and models are considered by reputable sources it’s very simple research that a mere google will tell anyone. You’re actually making it out to be much more complicated than it is. They tell you exactly what the safety ratings are for and how they’re tested you just have to spend more than 0 minutes reading the first few google results.
People can voice ask Google simple questions they’re just not wanting to care about any of this and then are shocked when anything happens.
You admit it yourself they’re just lazy consumers lol
What you’re positing here is a view of life that Margaret Thatcher loved. The idea is, “There is no society. There are no laws. There is no oversight. Everything, all responsibility, all of it is 1000% individual.”
Of course in reality that’s nonsense. We live in a world with laws that are sometimes enforced, where governments sometimes protect us, because we want them to, because that’s good for us all.
But even if you believe in Thatcher’s view, then you have the problem of corporations. You can’t seriously argue that we should be responsible for everything ourselves, as individuals, and also that corporations should exist, because they are anti-individual.
No im telling you how it is and until we don’t live in such a world we have to take responsibility or it literally is your own fault
We all know this is the world and corporations do not follow laws and the state is weak and subservient to international capital
Until it’s not you can’t just close your eyes and trust the goddam corpos lmao
Your life must be hectic, im guessing you must also check the company and maintenance of every lift/ elevator / aircraft you use? By your rationale, itd be your fault if you were to be involved in an accident due to a company not maintaining equipment properly?
If companies are lying in their advertising to the general public, then that is something the companies are responsible for. You can blame the victims, but that’s kind of stupid because there are so many people in the world who are not technically savvy. They don’t have the resources, background, knowledge, and skills to evaluate whether what the company is telling them is true. That’s why there are laws designed to protect consumers from lying companies.
Would it be great if everyone was an expert in everything? Yes. Are they? No. They never will be. That’s why we have laws.
Do you think an attractive woman who has been raped multiple times should simply know better? Is she asking for it if she wears slightly more revealing clothing? How many times does she need to be sexually abused before it’s her fault? How much responsibility does she have for her own abuse?
Somehow you’ve managed to connect basic consumer responsibility to being raped
There is literally something wrong with your brain if these are somehow remotely appropriate to compare
insert pikachushockedface
It is end to end encrypted but they can just pull the decrypted message from the app. This has been assumed for years, since they said they could parse messages for advertising purposes.
it’s not even that: they just hold the keys so can simply decrypt your messages with out your clients intervention any time they like
Yep, If they can access messages that are deleted from your device, then they have the keys.
Hasn’t it always been that they can decrypt the backups that you personally setup in wa, this way they don’t legally lie to you when the app tells you “this chat is encrypted, even Whatsapp cannot read the messages”.
Yes, any time you can store and recover encrypted cloud archives across devices, without needing to transfer keys between devices, it implies that there is a key archive somewhere in the cloud. Even Signal struggles to get this both user friendly and properly secure without compromising forward secrecy. I believe they still actually make you explicitly do a local key transfer to populate a new device, even though they have cloud archives now. Whatsapp doesn’t do that. And the app also clearly leaks some amount of unencrypted data anyway, archives or not.
Surely they have access otherwise how do they moderate and investigate account blocks, reports of spam etc. Accounts get suspended, then some automation reviews it, then it escalates to a human, who will have to make a judgement based on some policy. How can they do that if they see nothing? (I’m asking not condoning).
No surprised at all tbf.
E2EE isn’t really relevant, when the “ends” have the functionality, to share data with Meta directly: as “reports”, “customer support”, “assistance” (Meta AI); where a UI element is the separation.
Edit: it turns out cloud backups aren’t E2E encrypted by default… meaning: any backup data, which passes through Meta’s servers, to the cloud providers (like iCloud or Google Account), is unobscured to Meta; unless E2EE is explicitly enabled. And even then, WhatsApp’s privacy policy states: “if you use a data backup service integrated with our Services (like iCloud or Google Account), they will receive information you share with them, such as your WhatsApp messages.” So the encryption happens on the server side, meaning: Apple and Google still have full access to the content. It doesn’t matter if you, personally, refuse to use the “feature”: if the other end does, your interactions will be included in their backups.
Yeah. E2EE isn’t a single open standard. It’s a general security concept / practice. There’s no way to argue that they don’t really have E2EE if in fact they do, but they keep a copy of the encryption key for themselves. Also, the workers client app can simply have the “decrypt step” done transparently. Or, a decrypted copy of the messages could be stored in a cache that the client app uses… who knows? E2EE being present or not isn’t really the main story here. It’s Meta’s obvious deceitful-ness by leveraging the implicit beliefs about E2EE held by us common folk.
I don’t think it can be called End to End Encryption if it is actually End to End and The guy in the Middle.
Every technical definition of End to End Encryption states only the Sender and Recipient have keys to decrypt the message.
Anything else is using “End to End Encryption” purely as a marketing term like “Lite” or “Pure”.
It’s not End to End and The guy in the Middle. The message is encrypted from one end to the other. The detail about who has a copy of the key doesn’t spoil that fact, and I guarantee you Meta doesn’t care about using E2EE as a marketing term even if it misrepresents their actual product by matter of status quo. What matters is what they can theoretically argue in a court room.
A proper solution would be to have an open standard that specially calls out these details, along with certifications issued by trusted third parties.
Yeah, I guess if you want users to keep sharing “confessions, [] difficult debates, or silly inside jokes” through a platform you’ve acquired, E2EE might give the WhatsApp user the false sense of privacy required.
You gatta be real stupid to not realize that Facebook is harvesting your data.
What?!! No. The owner of WhatsApp would never lie to us.
Proposed line of defense: “With all respect, M. Judge, with all the different times we fucked our users, lied to them, tricked them, experimented on them, ignored them, we already sold private discussions on Facebook in the past, our CEO and founder most famous quote is «They trust me, dumbfucks!», the list goes on and on: no one in their sane mind would genuinely believe we were not spying on Whatsapp! They try to play dumb, they could not possibly believe we were being fair and honest THIS time?!”
It would not be surprising if found to be true. Difficult to see how the current business model operates at a profit. Their long term goal is the usual loss leader model until a monopoly is achieved and then slug us with ads, sell all the data, hike the price, etc. Sickening to watch them cosy up to fascists. They are probably supplying any and all the agencies with intelligence scraped from their user base. If Facebook were a person they would be a psychopath.
If Facebook were a person they would be a psychopath.
I mean, Mark Zuckerberg kind of is Facebook, and he’s a psycho.
Obligatory
Only a tech illiterate can expect privacy from a closed source program, open source is a requirement for both privacy and security.
