- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
Foundation says it won’t compromise policy of inclusivity even if that cash would’ve really helped
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Was going to go into just Rust and GDScript more but you what I am going to go into Python now too. Massive respect to them
I do not use Python for anything, but I donated. Any project, willing to stand up for its morals and against BS rules, is worth supporting.
Paying companies to be racist, what a world.
White women are the biggest beneficiaries of DEI. So who’s being racist by being against DEI exactly?
The DEI people are against are policies that mandate discriminatory practices, making someone’s race/gender a qualification. It’s wild that people here actually support discrimination in hiring.
Say you don’t understand dei, without saying you don’t understand dei
You have it backwards. DEI ensures it’s not just the same good ol boy hired as usual (which is what the current good ol boy employer wants)
This is where everyone here is being disingenuous, or are just completely ignoring opponents of DEI. When have opponents of DEI called for overlooking meritorious minorities? When have they called for discrimination? Because they must have explicitly done so if DEI combats this.
I know what the stated goals of DEI are, and it sounds good, but I also know how it’s often implemented: quantitative goals and affirmative action. These are discriminatory practices.
People routinely admit that white women are the biggest beneficiaries of DEI, calculated from things such as their access to STEM jobs (eg. IBM setting a goal of 50% female engineers), then they go right back to saying that hiring based on gender is actually not DEI. Pure gaslighting.
All true. The problem is, remove DEI and you hand the reigns directly to the baked-in systemic advantage of white men(tall, attractive with hair specifically). It’s like the ocean. DEI is a small seawall trying to make the slightest difference. It’s not perfect and takes work but the alternative is a flood of self-affirming bias where you end up with products and services created by them but supposedly for everyone.
DEI is just the easiest way for the administration to be racist and commit hate based firings without repercussions.
Glad people are refusing to sign an agreement with the fascists as THEY WILL take money back at any moment in time. They are very fragile people trying to compensate for being cucks.
I don’t believe that NSF had any ability to fire people from PSF.
Even if they will take the money back, isn’t that just a interest-free loan? It doesn’t seem like there is any drawback in your hypothetical.
That assumes you have that kind of cash to pay them back when they come knocking…
They’re buying influence. Its pretty clear.
The US government needs to buy influence? And they are doing that by giving grants that organizations apply for?
Do you think this is an isolated instance? They’re probably trying to do this a lot.
And if course they’re trying to influence other orgs to their will. Why else would you do this?
I think you are severely underestimating the level of influence the US government already has. NIST is a US Agency. Much of research in the US is done at the behest of the government. My local university had to comply* with anti-DEI policy to continue receiving federal funds ( it’s primary source of income).
Influencing the foundation of a, quite frankly bad, programming language is not really that impactful, especially considering that the foundation apparently only has 14 employees.
*In case you were wondering the only change they had to make was discontinuing LGBT work anniversaries. So you can probably see why I view this anti-anti-DEI fear mongering with some skepticism. The reality is that racial bias in an organization is very difficult to actually prove, regardless of whether it is pro or anti minority, so anti-DEI constraints simply prohibit explicit biasing.
That still doesn’t answer why do it then.
They’re literally attaching conditions to money. That’s one of the fundamentals of buying influence is attaching strings.
What about the people who make DEI a condition of getting money? Im all for equality etc, but Im 100% against people getting preferential treatment/consideration because of what they look like, have between their legs, or who they love. More often than not, these programs are little more than boxticking to wash the public profile. See Activision for example.
We keep on talking about racism in hiring, but never actually address the main issue in places like the US, which is that historic racism set black families back half a centaury in terms of wealth accumulation. This in turn has limited access to higher education, which limits the ability to compete in the market against an over whelming white population that has had access. The way forward seems to have been clear for a very long time, reparations. Any families that were held back through systemic racism, should be getting money from the banks and companies that discriminated against black families, causing multiple generations of inequality. Levelling up families allows them to send their kids to better schools, grow up in better areas, and compete in the work place at an equal level.
This cherry picking, and surface level tokenism does not work. It has worked for the past 50 years, and a new approach is needed. One that isnt just “You need a random black face in your team.”. Actual real, and lasting change, cant happen that way. The change needs to be at the roots of the issue. And that means money going to families, that gives their kids better access to education and to making friends too. As a lot of their future will also be “Not what you know, who you know.”.
DEI isn’t preferential treatment. It’s a methodology for correcting past, and preventing future preferential treatment.
And yes, I read your entire comment. The last 2 paragraphs are fine, but your first paragraph misses the mark by miles. What you describe in the first paragraph isn’t DEI.
Yes it is. I know the culture war disagrees with anything and everything that pissing all over DEI, but thats exactly what it is. You cant correct past or future mistakes that way. You either hire/recruit based on merit, or you dont. Theres no in between.
https://time.com/7291474/supreme-court-reverse-discrimination
The case was brought by Marlean Ames against the Ohio Department of Youth Services, where she started working in 2004. In 2019, she applied for a promotion, but was turned down and a colleague with less seniority—who was a lesbian woman—received the promotion instead. Ames was later demoted and her previous role was given to another colleague who had less seniority, a gay man.
I’m sure readers saw the title of this article and thought “what!? White straight men are the most represented group in businesses!” Nonetheless, an employment tribunal in the United Kingdom recently held that a strong candidate was deliberately not hired because he was a white, heterosexual male. See Furlong v Chief Constable of Cheshire Police, Case No. 2405577/2018 (U.K.).
It would be a mistake to conclude that discrimination based on sex, race, or sexual orientation only goes one way. I have loads of examples in the US and elsewhere, of “positive discrimination” by bad actors. And even more, where its clear as fuck, it was only something they were doing to wash their shitty reputations.
It looks like in the US supreme court decision the justices clarified the law and kicked it back to the lower courts. The final case hasn’t been ruled on yet. In the past, majority groups were expected to have stronger evidence for discrimination. This decision changes that. I don’t think that’s a great decision for minorities and I’m not sure using the current US Supreme court’s motivations, which don’t seem to be at all concerned with precedent, are a great basis for how we should frame our understanding of racial justice.
The UK case seems to indicate a ruling on the narrow principle of ‘positive action’ which is fundamentally distinct from ‘positive discrimination.’ You seem to be mixing those two ideas up a bit.
The judicial system is inherently conservative. It’s designed to be that way. And just because a judge or group of judges decides something doesn’t make it the right thing to do. This whole ‘reverse discrimination’ push is simply undoing the progress of the civil rights movement, unfortunately.
Im not mixing anything up. Just because you call it a different name, doesnt change what it is. Racism.
What seems to be happening is that a lot of people, yourself included, seem to think that the answer to past discrimination is more discrimination. And in case you all missed it, Trump has been voted in not once, but twice, because a very large group of people felt the deck being stacked against them.
Outside of that, you look to things like Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and other media franchises, were the mantra “Male and pale is stale” was openly said around their production over the past decade. The result is that young men and boys and all but abandoned those things. Because they are sick of being told that being straight, white and male is a bad thing. Its so bad, that Disney is now looking for another franchise to buy because they have no idea how to get genz and younger bums back on seats. And further to that, in social media world in general, the hate and generalisation of straight white males has gotten so bad that around the world young boys are increasingly being taken in by right wingers who dont treat them like rapists and abusers. Its almost like all this over correction has come back to bite everyone on the ass…
Black, white, gay, straight, man, woman, and everyone in between should be judged on just one thing. Their ability to do that job. If your the best person for the job, you should get it. End of. Once you start making excuses, once you start excluding people, you start making enemies. The only way to make sure that black people have the same start in life, if to make sure there is money and access to education that allows them to take control of their own lives, and puts them on a level playfield. Then you dont need to lower standards, or make excuses, or discriminate at all. You just hire the best person for the job, and you go about your day.
Quite a mouthful. Too bad none of it addresses the legal nuances you completely ignored in your previous assessment.
You don’t understand dei. You don’t know what you are talking about.
You are proposing a solution that has no real way to be implemented. How would you distribute the reparations? Would just having one ancestor who was a slave be enough? What if you also have an ancestor who was a wealthy merchant? What if your family immigrated after slaver, but before Jim Crow? Does having multiple ancestors stack? What if the company that took advantage of your ancestors doesn’t exist anymore? There is no perfect system, but I think you’re underestimating how many problems your system has.
Sure it does.
Wells Fargo, Bank of America (then Bank of Italy and later Bank of America National Trust & Savings), J.P. Morgan / Chase Manhattan Bank, Prudential Insurance Company, FHA (Federal Housing Administration), all have details records showing their part in systemic racism that made sure the black families couldnt get a mortgage, even when they were on the same financial footing as white families.
National Association of Real Estate Boards (NAREB), Levitt & Sons (builder of Levittown, NY & PA), Chicago Real Estate Board, St. Louis Real Estate Exchange, Los Angeles Realty Board, enforced segregation through racial covenants, steering, and blockbusting.
It wouldnt be until the Fair Housing Act(1968) that this practice was made illegal.
Will be easy? No. Can it be done? Most likely, as long as you are OK with banks and real estate agencies and uber rich who profited getting fucked so hard they bounce. Should it be done? In my opinion, yes. America is race. And black families were held back on the starting line on purpose.
It wasn’t just banks.
And black families were held back on the starting line on purpose.
It wasn’t just Black families either.
You also didn’t answer my question about how you handle families who came to America after slavery. You’ve made your answer simple by ignoring a lot of the issues I brought up. From a practical angle, it’s far easier to implement DEI. It also wouldn’t have to be implemented long term. It would only really be necessary for those with an unfair education. If you fix the public school system, you could retire DEI once those school kids enter the workforce.
I didnt answer that because what Im saying has exactly nothing to do with slavery. Im talking about early 1900s, when the boom started.
Let me be CRYSTAL fucking clear. FUCK DEI!!! ITs a racist and sexist program that solves not a fucking thing. It just moves the goal posts of discrimination. I cant fucking fart loud enough to say how much I want that shit gone. Just because the Orange prick said the same thing, doesnt make it wrong. FUCK DEI!
Wrongggggggggggg
To make matters worse, the terms included a provision that if the PSF was found to have voilated that anti-DEI diktat, the NSF reserved the right to claw back any previously disbursed funds, Crary explained. “This would create a situation where money we’d already spent could be taken back, which would be an enormous, open-ended financial risk,” the PSF director added.
Nobody in their right mind would sign such a travesty.
“We think you’ve hired too many black people, you now owe us millions of dollars.”
The fact that having money and simply convincing someone to accept it with terms means someone gets to do that in this system is fucking wretched.
You refuse to implement a back door for us in all of your cryptography modules, so we say you hired too many black people and now you owe us the money back.
I keep forgetting that for the rich, bigotry is often more of an excuse than an ideology.
It depends.
For many ‘new’ MAGA conservatives, its kind of a means to an end, yeah. It a part of the culture of feeling victimized. Its why so many bristle at being called racists as a blanket term: they actually aren’t.
But there are certainly old\ gheezers (many leaders) or perpetually online influencers that are legit racists. Or “great replacement theory” tangential believers that really straddle the line.
One of the most unnerving things about rightism is that there seem to be separate versions of the ideology, tailored to specific classes, for the purpose of perpetuating a cycle of abuse and obedience.
Well that’s true of many political “sides,” historical and extant, unfortunately.
See: Lemmygrad.
I think the lesson is to not believe in ideologies so rigidly, and to not revere individual leaders/influencers to such an extent.
To be fair, by the classical definition of left and right (equality vs hierarchy), tankies are right wingers. Authoritarianism is very much a rightist ideology. In fact, i would even argue that things like the “Cultural Revolution” in China were fascist because they demanded absolute loyalty to the state and its ideology on threat of violence. They just hate the other right wingers a lot because the nations they cheer for have been enemies of what I will loosely call “The West”, so they didn’t absorb the beliefs that commonly define western right wingers in the modern age.
I’d do the same
DEI was a solution to a problem. When you remove the solution, what remains is the problem.
DEI was a solution to a problem.
It was strategy for industry and government with an international focus. JP Morgan hires Japanese businessmen to acquire equity in Japanese firms and Samsung hires American bankers to negotiate loans with Wall Street. Nigerian oil executives shake hands with African American State Department staffers to negotiate trans-Atlantic trade deals. Korean native speakers in Seoul make sure American military bases don’t create political headaches for Korean politicians. Middle Eastern dictators in Egypt and Israel and Saudi Arabia met with counterparts who knew their customs and spoke their language.
The goal remained consolidation of wealth into the hands of a handful of (primarily white, American based) oligarchs. But the scope of global commerce required regional HQs and middle-men who had to navigate a kaleidoscope of local organizations and logistics partners.
Trumpism is pulling all that back and trying to return to the old Colonial model of capitalism. Your hierarchy is primarily predicated on your physical identity - White. Christian. Fuckable. Man. - in that descending order. Now we put Donald Trump and Tony Blair into the chairmanship of the Gaza Peace Plan, because we don’t trust any Arabs or Israelis to get the job done. We fuck with India, China, and Mexico on a daily basis, because their heads of state don’t meet our definition of Real Person.
When you remove the solution, what remains is the problem.
The objectives of the current government have shifted substantially from the Nixon to Obama neoliberal era. We are a white nationalist government first and foremost. It isn’t that we still have the same problem. It’s that we have a totally different set of goals.
Anti-DEI (racism) is doomed to fail, because it only works in an imaginary world without interracial/international marriage/families. The racists have cornered themselves in because distinct races is something they make up. The real world is not made up of distinct races.
the french model of completely banning even the collection of that information, outside of strictly for facilitating medical care, seems like the best way forward imo.
if you have that information, the race supremacists will use it to their own ends if they ever come into power…as we are seeing right now with ICE
I’ve seen forms were providing info is optional. At this point, I don’t see why anyone would answer. We can’t even trust governments to use or protect the info for our good.
it only works in an imaginary world without interracial/international marriage/families
You can go back to the 18th century and see it in practice. Also in apartheid systems like the South African junta and the Hinduvista/Tibetan caste systems. The method works so long as the families at the top of the food chain can exert sufficient control downstream, typically via a mix of funding/staffing large occupying armies and pitting native peoples against one another to the benefit of the foreign ruler.
If you get into the history of the French and Indian War, for instance, you had the English and French colonialists backing various American native tribes in what was effectively a coast-wide war. Similarly, Cortez and Pizarro defeated the Aztec and Inca empires respectively in large part by turning insurgent factions within the empire against the chief monarchs and supporting their insurrection with superior European firepower. The end state of the fail of the local empires was foreign governors playing “Kingmaker” among the native peoples. Then they carved out larger and larger settlements for their own migrant populations, while stoking fear of the natives to encourage loyalty to the foreign crowns.
The real world is not made up of distinct races.
It’s made up of distinct languages and cultures, as well as distinct understood identities and accepted hierarchies. The strategy of Divide and Conquer is an ancient and devastatingly effective one. Our post-WW2 neoliberal turn happened as a necessary rebuttal to Internationalist Communism (which was, itself, fumbled early on via the Soviet-Sino split). But it only needed to persist until the threat of Soviet Era support for anti-colonialist native coalitions faded.
Without a Stalin or Khrushchev or even a Castro or Tito willing to put a thousand guys with guns on a boat and send them to support a Marxist revolt in Columbia or Angola or Vietnam or Afghanistan, there’s no need to pretend we need a Big NATO Tent. No more need for the EU. No more need for economic alliances in the Pacific Rim. Now its every Colonial Empire for themselves. We can go back to merchantilism and juicing our satraps like a bunch of ripe oranges.
No family can sufficient control downstream. That is again imaginary.
And no, the world is not made up of distinct languages and cultures. All continuums. You could find thousands on examples yourself.
No family can sufficient control downstream.
The English Royal Family managed it for centuries. The Spanish and French for nearly as long. The Hapsburg Dynasty dominated European politics for longer still. Get into East Asian dynastic rule or the great empires of Ethiopia and Egypt… FFS, the Caesers reined across the Mediterranean for what? Nearly a millennium?
And no, the world is not made up of distinct languages and cultures. All continuums.
There’s historical continuums that give birth to discrete divisions through geography and social conflict. The Silk Road connects the length of Asia, but the various mountains and deserts and human fortifications form hard divisions between both linguistics and social practices.
Physical and social division over time create a compact social separation between people in the same way it creates distinct speciation at longer distances and time frames.
“FFS” as you say. Put your own family first, instead of theirs, and stay out of others’.
Hugs to Python Foundation.
the terms included a provision that if the PSF was found to have voilated that anti-DEI diktat, the NSF reserved the right to claw back any previously disbursed funds, Crary explained.
“This would create a situation where money we’d already spent could be taken back, which would be an enormous, open-ended financial risk,” the PSF director added.
“Part of the problem here is all the uncertainties,” Crary told us. “Even if we wanted to give up anything that might be considered [DEI] work - which we don’t - part of the risk here is that all these restrictions are new, the language is very broad … I had no interest in being the test case.”
Sounds like a really awful deal; get some funding, but the unpredictable and corrupt US government gets opportunities to bankrupt you.
Fuck yes. Nerds with basic fucking integrity. Mad respect.
Sent a donation! For as much as I’ve used python probably should have donated sooner but better late than never
These terms included affirming the statement that we ‘do not, and will not during the term of this financial assistance award, operate any programs that advance or promote DEI [diversity, equity, and inclusion], or discriminatory equity ideology in violation of Federal anti-discrimination laws,’
Insane. I can’t even fathom adding such a condition. And to a well established org with a positive track record.
Toxic offer. Wouldn’t even be able to say that inclusivity is a good thing.
wait. so its not just about spending the money they are giving on dei? its saying they won’t even with other funds. What if the other funds are mandated to be used for dei? This is just disingenuous. Having a grant that dictates how other donations and grants are used is ridiculous and it was intended to not be taken.
Not only that, but if they do engage in “DEI activities” (definition not included) then they reserve the right to take back the entire grant and and previous money the python foundation had recieved from them in the past. Its a total poison pill, and if this sort of language is widespread in government grants its going to completly gut research in the USA.
Yeah seriously, imagine saying that out loud. No being fair and including everyone!
It does not matter how much money you do or don’t have, there is no sense pretending there is any sustainable path forward without a conscious commitment to inclusivity.
That’s just it: a sustainable path isn’t in it. They want that to not even be an option. They want to burn it all twice as fast so they can buy bigger yachts.
And that’s what made me finally donate to Python after a little over a decade of using it.
It never occurred to me to donate to a language!
I donate to languages daily by coming up with new words for free! Entguavisation Tascratulusly
That must be typescript.
🎶🎶 I use a word that don’t mean nothin’, like loopdid. 🎶🎶
I don’t really like Python, but I’m also tempted to donate just to support them for this.
that pic is me when someone offers me to learn javascript
Can I interest you in learning Brainfuck?
ive played with it before
